Rooted in Love and Legacy: The Unexpected Gift of Katie

What happens when someone walks into your life and helps rebuild the very foundation grief once tore apart?

Nearly 30 years ago, Katie (Hines) Thomas entered our lives not to replace what had been lost—but to hold space for all of it. In this deeply personal Mother’s Day episode, we sit down with our stepmom, Katie, and reflect on the three decades of love, loss, and legacy that have shaped our big, beautiful “family bush.”

From the sudden loss of her in-laws and the death of her first child to the heartbreak of divorce, navigating a radical mastectomy, and raising four children on her own, Katie’s story is one of extraordinary resilience. When she met our dad shortly after our mom's passing, neither of them were looking for love—but what they found was something transformative. Together, they blended their adult families with intentional love, grace, and a shared commitment to showing up for each other, no matter what.

This episode explores:

• The unexpected love story that brought Katie and our dad together
• The complexities and gifts of blending families as adults
• Katie’s remarkable career in education and counseling
• Her personal losses and the legacy she’s building through it all
• What it means to be mothered in different seasons of life
• How aging with love, humor, and purpose is its own form of legacy

Whether you're navigating your own blended family, grieving the loss of a parent, or reflecting on the relationships that shaped you—this story is a reminder that family is about more than blood. It’s about who stays, who loves, and who grows with us.

Recorded just before Mother's Day, this conversation honors not only one extraordinary woman—but the resilience and tenderness that shape the families we choose and create.

Chapters

• 0:00 A Mother's Day Introduction
• 11:49 Katie and Pop's Love Story
• 33:05 Katie's Early Life and Family
• 1:03:38 A Career Dedicated to Children
• 1:28:47 Becoming a Blended Family
• 1:38:15 Life With Pop Today
• 1:40:32 Motherhood Across Generations

Transcript

The Sisters: 0:11

There are moments in life that change everything the loss of a parent, the presence of someone new, and the quiet, unexpected ways that love rebuilds what grief once tore apart. For us, that moment came nearly 30 years ago, when Katie walked into our lives. It wasn't in some big, dramatic way. It was quiet, gentle, grounded. After our mom passed away, we were grown, grieving and trying to figure out how to move forward. Katie didn't replace anyone. She simply made space for all of us. Her story begins long before we knew her, with heartbreak, hard choices and hope. And this Mother's Day, we're sitting down with a woman who not only married our dad but somehow managed to stitch together a new kind of family from the pieces left behind. This isn't just a conversation about motherhood. It's a conversation about love, loss, healing and history. Welcome to the PIG, where we explore life, love, loss and legacy through real conversations and meaningful stories. We're your hosts. I'm Erin and I'm Kelly. Whether this is your first episode or you've been with us from the start, today's story is deeply personal, so settle in with us as we open the door to a woman who's been a part of our lives for nearly three decades and whose presence, laughter and unwavering strength have helped shape the women we are.

Erin: 1:35

I'm already crying.

Kellie: 1:55

Well, we didn't make it far without tears.

Erin: 1:58

No, we did not, and I knew we wouldn't.

Kellie: 2:01

Katie, it's really incredible for Erin and I to sit down with you today, especially just days before Mother's Day. So happy early Mother's Day to you. You have been such an instrumental part of our world for nearly three decades. You have been the mom that we've needed when we haven't had a mom. You've been a mom to your own children. You've mothered all of us along the way, and our hearts are so full of gratitude, not just for the role that you've played in our lives individually, together as sisters, but also who you've been in the life of our dad and how we have watched the two of you navigate so many complexities of life. Because, let's face it, with seven grown children and all the grandchildren and now all the great grandchildren, there's a lot to maneuver, but the day you stepped into our world, you stepped into our hearts. So, as we explore our life together and your life with POP, we can't thank you enough for being here and being a part of what we're doing and supporting it every step of the way. You have been a champion and a cheerleader for both of us through thick and thin, and it's one of the things that I know we both respect about you so deeply. And so, aaron, I'm going to throw it out to you to kind of kick us off. And then, katie, we would love to just really start by exploring how all of us came together, how we even became a family, and we'll see where the conversation takes us.

Katie: 3:35

Sounds great.

Erin: 3:36

I love that. Thank you for that.

Erin: 3:38

And such a beautiful introduction. I echo all of those sentiments. Katie, you will likely never know just how deeply you've touched our family, and while I wasn't expecting tears quite this early in this conversation, I'm not surprised by them, and they are tears of unbelievable joy and gratitude for who you are and who you've been in. Like Kelly said, our lives, your kids' lives, pop's life, all of our kids, and the incredible grandmother you are and great grandmother you are. And I know that your life has brought its own losses and we'll explore those you know, and we'll explore those you know today for sure.

Erin: 4:29

But the impact that you've had and the legacy that you live out each and every day, the legacy that you have built through your life, just is so profound and resonates so deeply with, I know, the two of us and so it is an honor to have you as a guest on the podcast. We've had so many heartfelt, beautiful, amazing conversations over the years but to get to have a conversation like this that we get to share with the world that's not just a private conversation is really special and unique. So I'm very grateful for you and really grateful that you're here today and, yeah, I'm excited to just let you jump in and start sharing so much of your story and your history and who you are with us and with our listeners. So I will let you actually just jump right in and talk about really how you entered our lives, with your dad being our neighbor growing up. You know from when I was growing up, but I would love for you to just jump in and share kind of from the beginning of when you entered our world.

Katie: 5:40

That seems like so long ago and yet it seems like yesterday and when I think about that. Well, starting with the beginning, it was kind of an interesting way that your dad and I met, and I'd probably start with that. My stepmother had pancreatic cancer and died, and so I lived up in the mountains, high up in the highest incorporated city in the nation, and I used to go down and take care of them, clean their house about every other weekend. I was a school principal at the time. Then one time my dad decided to just move to Mexico. He'd been going there for years, so we were driving in the truck and he started talking about how all these women were after him. He was 90, I think. Oh, he was about 86, close to my age now, but he was talking about these women. And then I was talking about I had been a single mom for almost 18 years and I had chosen in the very beginning not to get involved with any men, because I had four kids three of them were girls and I was really worried about who I might bring into their lives, because I had four kids, three of them were girls and I was really worried about who I might bring into their lives because I thought, you know, 12, 13 years out of my life- because the kids were, I think, like seven, eight, nine, 10,

Katie: 6:56

... not emotionally and I could do that later in life. I wasn't against men, I just was against divorce and the energy it takes to maintain well, especially an early relationship. It takes a lot of energy and so I knew that I was going to be using all my energy on trying to support them. And it was really so important to me that, despite of getting a divorce and moving into a career that I number one was being a mom, moving into a career, that I number one was being a mom, no matter what number one was being a mom. But that's kind of where I had been coming from all along. So I told my father, you know, I wouldn't mind meeting someone to go out to dinner with someone interesting, but no way do I want to get married. I said I'm not ready there. My career was moving forward. I just didn't, you know, I wasn't ready to be married, but I was ready to let someone in my world. In fact, when I turned 50, I remember thinking of okay, 50 now, but you guys not you, aaron, you've got a ways to go, but the rest of the seven have all turned 50 and beyond. So, anyway, I'd love to meet someone, but you know I don't. Last thing I want to do is get involved.

Katie: 8:07

And so he came back and there was a neighbor that they shared and her name was Carolyn Love. And so it's interesting because she and my dad both take credit for introducing your dad and I. Oh, carolyn told me at once she thought it was the greatest thing she did in her whole lifetime was to introduce the two of us. And so I love Carolyn. I know Me too. She was a beautiful soul. She was a beautiful soul.

Katie: 8:32

Well, evidently Carolyn was having these two single man over widows, because during that timeframe that I was traveling with my dad, your mom became ill and I knew there was a woman and man that were going to my father's home and I knew that the wife brought her some Deepak Chopra tapes to listen to. And then I knew that the man was the only person he was a doctor, was the only person that she would let do any physicals on her or touch her until she died, basically. So I knew that there were these two people. Well then my father got a invitation to your wedding and I was invited too, but I didn't know anyone and you know, it was just it's kind of awkward.

Katie: 9:19

It was kind of a social out what am I trying to say? Recluse or whatever at that time. So anyway, that just shows another connection. So my father went over to your home and he just says hey, you know, I have a daughter that comes down and helps us out. Now, when your dad tells this story, it's different than what I think my dad actually said. But your dad tells a story and says, oh, and he said she was just pining away and had nothing to do there, no social life, and so would he please just take her out and get her out rather than just sitting around. So that's your dad's side. We've heard it.

Kellie: 9:56

We've heard it.

Katie: 9:58

I know you have... everybody has. All our friends, everybody's heard it. And the problem is, your dad's such a good actor, a lot of people believe it!

Erin: 10:10

And he is a storyteller, so you never really know what's true and what's not, but we know the truth.

Katie: 10:16

In fact, just today I told him are you really serious or you know, I don't know half the time. But so my dad says, well, hey, so sometime if you see a different car down here at our home, feel free to come over or ask her out on a date or something. So your dad and he's probably told this story, but anyway your dad came down from a failed date at Aspen where he stayed in the hotel Jerome for free in May, and so he calls up and he talked to my dad and he asked if he could talk to me and my dad played the role he always played as a dad. I mean, here your dad is 50-something and he kind of it was like a name, phone number, address, car insurance kind of thing. It wasn't that bad, but it reminded me of his attitude.

Katie: 11:04

You know the way he'd always been with me when I was going to go on a date. But anyway he said, here, I'll let you talk to her. And so anyway we got on and I remember the first thing that just really impressed me was the sound of his voice. He just had this very comforting tone. And so anyway, he asked me to go to a movie that night and I said yes. And so when he first came, oh, my father answered the door the whole thing and played that Me coming down. I mean, you know, it was just these two men kind of.

Kellie: 11:34

It was kind of funny, which is so funny, Katie, because we lived across the street from Vernon for years.

Katie: 11:42

I know, you know all the players.

Kellie: 11:43

So we knew Vernon and Winnie so well. We lived next door to Carolyn, so it's so cute how fatherly he was. Yeah, you know all the characters. So this was May of 1995?.

Katie: 11:55

Yes, because your mother died in 94?

Kellie: 11:57

Right, September of 1994

Katie: 11:59

Right, so it was May of 1995. So, anyway, we went to the movie I'll remember it sometime, but it was romantic. And then we went to the box light and so, anyway, we just, you know, we had a nice evening and he took me home, and so the next day he calls me and asked me if I'd like to go for a walk along the river, and so I said yes. I said yes, but at our age, being in our 50s, well, obviously there was a spark there and it was like before either one of us was even willing to take any kind of a step.

Katie: 12:30

We needed to establish some things, find out where this other person's coming from. I know for me a strong thing was family and children. You know I couldn't go off in a relationship and leave anybody behind. You know I couldn't go off in a relationship and leave anybody behind. He basically validated that, that that was one of his priorities too, and that's probably the most pervasive thing that we you know that we established. And then, of course, there's things like loyalty and all kinds of things that we all have issues with. You know, frequently it's things that maybe in the past or whatever. I mean. There's just no way that you can live at all and not have some bad experiences where you remember certain patterns or certain things and you learn from those things. And so I think that both of us had our issues and so those were things that also we put on the table.

Katie: 13:21

Then it just proceeded from there and so he came up to where I lived and one time pretty new into our relationship. School had ended for the school year but my secretaries and I were still working in the office, and so your dad called and asked if I'd like to go out to lunch and I thought and that's the first thing he knew about this relationship, which makes sense when I think it was, you know, the 28th of May that we met basically, and so in this little mountain town they just could not believe the romance. He flew up in the airplane and flying up and taking me to lunch, and so my staff and everyone saw our love kind of grow and develop, and so they were a big part of that because I'd been single and everybody knew that, and so anyway, that pretty much is how we met and then one of the things that was so nice about it for both of us is that it was three and a half hours to drive to see each other. We could get together for the weekend and it was sort of like he was courting me, but during the week I could devote all my time to my job and he, you know, had grieving to do.

Katie: 14:29

He had, he was involved in your lives, I think. He did eyes for a while, but that's all. He didn't do any heavy duty anesthesia, so anyway, we were allowed to get away from each other, basically, and then every time he would call and ask me out, I could have said no, you know how you, just you really are a distance enough away that you don't feel any pressure, and he didn't have any pressure to keep calling me back either. So anyway, that's the beginning of our love story, and I don't know if I said one of the things I wanted to do when I turned 50 was before I died. I wanted to meet my prince, and so I'm kind of a romantic and so I met my prince...

Erin: 15:27

Oh, it's so beautiful, it's so fun for me

Erin: 15:37

I was a little girl when we moved into that house and became neighbors with your dad and stepmom, so I really grew up, like you mentioned, with Bill and Carolyn Love Next Door, the Instrums on the other side of them, which are now such a huge part of what we're doing with the podcast and then your dad, vernon and Winnie, across the street, and as a little girl I felt like I had all these extra parents and grandparents kind of the distant aunts and uncles keeping their eye on me, keeping me in check Pretty sure your dad's the one who called the police when I threw a party at the house one time those kind of neighbors. But I think back on that time of my life with such fondness and just the love that I had for vernon and winnie and all of those characters that were just such a part of my childhood and my upbringing, and so it's so fun for, as much as I know about your story and your relationship, obviously, with pop, it is so fun always to hear it firsthand from you, to be reminded of the place and time in your lives that you were at, because you know, when I was 17, and you guys met and you entered our world. You know I had one viewpoint of that. You know that meeting and that time of my life. It's so interesting now to be at that place yourself, to be at that age myself that you guys were when you met and started dating, and there's so much now that reminds me of my own relationship with Jason right.

Erin: 17:35

Meeting as adults it's just such a different experience than meeting when you're young, pre--kids, pre-all. You know all of that and so it's very fun for me to hear, and to continue to hear, that story. Thank you for sharing. It's fun to hear it from you too, katie, and not Pop, because we know the story. But when we get to hear the story from you and he's not around, it's very heartfelt and it really was a beautiful story. And I want it to be known too that even though I was a teenager living in the house then I didn't throw the parties.

Katie: 18:14

I have to tell you, Erin, he said all of you guys. So my dad did rat you out to me but he never caught to calling the police. So I don't know who knows what could have been, but he never acknowledged that calling the police. So I don't know.

Erin: 18:29

Who knows... we one to get caught. It was fine. And Kellie did throw the parties... they just didn't get caught because my life was threatened if I told,

Erin: 18:41

so I wasn't going to say anything. So then nobody ever found out.

Kellie: 18:45

I think that was Scott who threatened your life...

Erin: 18:48

Likely.

Kellie: 18:50

h, goodness gracious. This is so K atie. Let's go all the way back to your story. You had 50 years of life before pop and you have a beautiful story. Let's just start from the beginning with your life and your upbringing and your parents, how you grew up, some of your favorite memories and maybe some of the life and living and losses and love that shaped who you were at the time that you met Pop and the two of you fell in love.

Katie: 19:24

Well, you know, it's interesting because when I talked to your guy... (Erin: Chris Howard?) Yes, Chris Howard. So I talked to him at one point in time and he asked me that question, and so it's kind of interesting to go down that lane, that path, in my life. So I'll probably hit some similar points that I did then just because, yeah, we haven't heard that interview, don't know anything about it. So I'll probably hit some similar points that I did then just because, yeah,

Kellie: 19:45

Yeah, we haven't heard that interview.

Katie: 19:48

Oh, really? Well, one thing that was interesting about it not to take away from my story was that it's amazing, the parallels of your mother's life and mine. And he said, no wonder Lew chose you, he kind of chose Marsha. So I had, you know, was a child of parents that had gone through the Depression, through World War II, and I was born in 45, basically when the war was ending. And I still have telegraphs where my mom telegraphed my dad when he was on the Maginot line in France, and then his response, you know it basically said that I was here, blah, blah, blah. And then his response, you know it, basically said that I was here, blah, blah, blah, but said it from my point of view. And then he wrote back and said oh, congratulations, can't wait to meet you, wow. And so, anyway, I have those, I have telegraphs that went back and forth, and so that's how my world began. We're right on the cusp of your dad's always figuring this out, exactly Kind of the greatest generation and baby boomers, and there's one right in the middle, but anyway.

Katie: 20:48

So my father came home from the war and nowadays we would say with very serious PTSD, he'd gotten two Bronze Stiers, silver Star recommendations, you know big recommendations and all, and he was kind of like a private Ryan kind of guy, if you saw that movie where he went out and drug a guy who had been shot back and then went back out past enemy lines, you know, did all that kind of stuff, which means, as I say, he was pretty damaged. And so he raised my brother and I very military, with yes or no sir, and he also was an alcoholic, which a lot of men came back with alcoholism, just like Vietnam was a lot of drug use. So anyway, I used to be beat with a belt for getting anything under a B or I mean it was random. And then my mother had her own mental issues. She was bipolar and had been off on lithium, off and on. And you know my mother, she can be pretty fun and pretty crazy, but some of that was real.

Katie: 21:48

So anyway, we used to go to the Episcopal Church In fact my parents founded one in Denver and when I was young I memorized the evening prayer service and so when things would be ugly, you know, with them fighting or whatever, I would just repeat, I said it actually, I just said it to myself every night so I could go to sleep and I used to have God bless everybody I knew which. That list grew by the time I was 21. I can tell you though, at some point, I think, in my mind, God really became my father. I used to pray to him and I drew a lot of strength from that faith, and so I proceeded through life. My parents got a divorce. My mother had a double mastectomy. I became her mother and my brother's mother in many, many ways...

Kellie: 22:34

Hey Katie how old were you when that happened, and did your mom have cancer?

Kellie: 22:39

Is that why she got her mastectomy?

Katie: 22:41

She didn't have cancer, but that's why she had the mastectomy. At the time she was having lots of discharges and tumors and all kinds of things on her breasts and getting like a half cup of it Just you know what I mean. Just a lot of stuff. And so they did a radical, and that was probably when I was about 11 and my brother's, just a year and a half younger than me and... (Erin): How old were you and your parents divorced? About 11.

Katie: 23:06

Okay, so that happened at 11.

Kellie: 23:08

And then yeah, everything kind of kind of happened at one yes and we kind of like what happened to us. At about the same ages... That's what I'm saying At about the same ages.

Katie: 23:20

City because my mother thought her parents would be of support and help, but they were older and so they really weren't at all. And so then my father, you know, we visited my father and one thing I can say is I always knew both my parents loved me. I never doubted that. They loved me. So even though they might've had some inappropriate behavior or those kinds of things, I think at some point I learned to separate behavior from the person, and so that allowed me, it allowed me to forgive just about everybody, because if you know, if you believe we're children of God, then we all are children of God in my mind, but some have some pretty evil behaviors and some pretty dysfunctional behaviors. But anyway, those were my ages, and so my father was willing to pay for me to go to college, and so I went to college and when I was 17, I graduated when I was 17. And I didn't turn 18 until February of my first year in college and I wasn't very focused in college and I was really kind of looking for a mister, focused in college, and I was really kind of looking for a mister. Our generation was doing quite a bit of that.

Katie: 24:28

But I met my kid's father and we had four children together, and one interesting thing that I've thought of later in life is that while we were married I was married at 20. And so while we were married, his parents became good friends with my parents. Mine were in Colorado, in the mountains, and they were in California, and so they were flying out to see my parents, but I didn't know that and their plane crashed and so my in-laws were killed when I was 23 and their dad was my ex-husband was 25. And so my children grew up without either a grandmother or a grandfather kind of like you guys, different circumstances, but there just wasn't that balance that grandparents can make such a difference in a person's life, and I was always kind of sorry that my kids didn't get to know them. But what was interesting to me, as I say later on, was that here I was married to a person who lost both his parents and then his brother just dropped over dead from a heart defect at 32. My nephews were out in the field working with him and they were like 12 and 14, something like that, and they were all laying pipe and irrigating some land and he just disappeared and then they searched for him and found him and ran to the highway to get help and all that kind of stuff.

Katie: 25:47

But anyway, so talk about loss. The first time I really saw or experienced true loss was particularly his parents, because we were the oldest of four kids and so at 23, I became a pseudo mother for his three siblings, and one was in high school, her 17, her junior year and my parents both reached out to her in particular, but anyway, so that was a big, just a big everything. His parents had been a real center of the family. So Tony, who was my kid's dad's name, we tried to maintain that whole family, particularly all the siblings, but also the aunts and uncles and grandparents and everything. And they were Portuguese and we moved back there the year, basically, that they were killed. So I'm in the middle of the San Joaquin Valley and had grown up in a pretty white world, and so there were the Mexicans, the Portuguese, the Italians, the French Basques and the Okies, and I was an Okie, but anyway that marriage fell apart for a lot. I'm sure that their dad was traumatized by all of his losses and that was the way that he handled it, and so I left him and I had to have a way to support my kids.

Katie: 27:06

So I went back to college and got my bachelor's and my master's and like three and a half years I took as many credits I could every single semester and my first year there. By the end of the last semester I had had a lot of things going wrong with my breasts, including blood coming out of my nipples and all kinds of stuff. So I had a radical mastectomy at that time. And so you know it was so hard on my kids and my mom worked so she couldn't come. But my stepmom took off of work and came and stayed with the kids and at the time they were experimenting with if the cancer hadn't really presented, then if they removed all the tissue and replaced it with an artificial breast that the chances of my having cancer. They had predicted it was an 80% chance I would have cancer, but by doing that they basically eliminated that as an option.

Katie: 28:03

And of course, but by doing that they basically eliminated that as an option. And of course I'm thinking. You know my kid's dad had a lot of issues and so I had to live. You know I had to live, and so losing my breath became very secondary, I wasn't real attached to him anyway. So anyway, and you kind of just you get through it Again. I had faith. So when I came, you know how I said earlier that I never wanted to give up being that mom. And so when I got home from the hospital, all the neighborhood kids, they decorated our house and had signs welcome home, mom. Because they all called me mom and they made me a cake. It's a very touching memory. So I'm sure you guys are starting to see the trend of the similarities of your lives and your mother's life and my life.

Kellie: 28:48

It's really remarkable actually, isn't it? Yeah, it really is. Even down to the locations in the country: California, Kansas City, Leadville, Grand Junction. Marcus and I did this. We kind of chased each other around the country before we actually finally crossed paths. We kept saying, oh, we missed there by two weeks or two months or two years. It's really funny. Katie, can we go back real quick, because I knew the story about Tony's parents dying in the plane crash? Had you started your family at that point, or was this before you started passing each other in the hallway and had five babies in five years? And we're going to talk about that because you lost your first baby? Yes, exactly Full term. Yes, which is something that you and I share and something that you really helped me with and through at that phase of my life, which will come later.

Katie: 29:53

Kristine was a year and a half and Michele was six months. Then Nicole came, like almost nine months after his parents plane crash. We always wanted four children, but I don't think we would have had them quite so close together, but I think in our minds we were replacing one of his parents. You know, I think there was a psychological thing that went on there. And when she was a girl because in those days we didn't know those things ahead of time Her middle name is his mother's middle name.

Katie: 30:21

And then along came TJ, the boy with three sisters, and so we named him. You know, we did the traditional, the name Tony, like his dad Anthony, but he had a different middle name. So he was Anthony Joseph, or his dad was Anthony John, but yes, so then we had four children. And that's actually when our friends started asking us if we walked down the hall with no clothes on and just bumped into each other, and like us, if we walked down the hall with no clothes on and just bumped into each other. And then I told him well, you know what, when we figured it out, we ended up getting a divorce.

Erin: 30:57

I would be really interested in putting some dates and ages around some of these major life events and so, yeah, how old you were when you and Tony divorced and the ages of your kids during that time.

Katie: 31:12

So the divorce I remember I went back to college in like 82. But the divorce had started a year or so before, so, yeah, it was right around 32. Yeah, okay. And then it had the double mastectomy, right, and so I had to go back to court next week and a half and it was just so physically hard to make myself do it, if that makes sense. And I remember dragging my suitcase through the airport and almost crying because it just hurts and I'm only saying that partly in relating to your mom. You know it just hurts so bad.

Erin: 31:49

And I went and stayed with the person who actually became my maid of honor for my wedding with your dad, rhoda, and so I stayed with her and I slept for 24 hours when I got there. You know you're just exhausted, yeah, so there's things in your life that you influence because of your decisions that aren't always good decisions, and most of my life is filled with those. I'm just saying I've had control of a lot of what's happened in my life, you know, and I'm not saying there were bad choices or good choices, I'm just saying but things like that impact your life, your decisions, and you've really had nothing to do with that. You know, it's just something that you have to deal with the best that you can. Yes, so that was my age and I went back and finished when I was like 26, 27, or 36, 37, sorry, and it was really something else to graduate and to have you know, and this was like, this was like 80, 1980. And so it was really something to have these four little kids standing up on their chairs clapping for me as I went across the stage to get my diploma. That was just one of those kind of highlights in life.

Erin: 33:03

It was a highlight in my parents' life, especially my dad's, because he used to say that I was a third quarter college dropout. He used to tell all his friends that it was kind of yeah, to do that in front of him and kind of, yes, I did do it, you know, kind of. So then I was just a single mom, raising my kids and being a mom. All those years. They were involved in all kinds of things and you know, being a true single mom. You know where I'm. My parents loved my kids, but you know they already raised us and so you know like teenagers were something else really. I don't know how many wrecked cars, smashed bumpers, you know just all those kinds of things that happened at the time. But we had a good life, you know, we had a good life together. We were blessed.

Kellie: 34:10

So you were out in California as a single mom and got your degrees out there.

Katie: 34:16

No, Colorado.

Kellie: 34:18

So when did you come to Colorado from California?

Katie: 34:21

I did leave that part out, didn't I? Well, for one thing, I was from Colorado, right, and so I miss the mountains, I miss Colorado, if I'm going to have to. Oh, I remember we did go to marriage and counselor and they said that I just had to build my life around with you know, like have my own life, and not have my life involved with him at all, which he was, you know he was had become an, an alcoholic. He was in the bars all the time. I kept a calendar one time and I think he was home one night out of the month and he didn't necessarily spend the night, the total night out, but he was out drinking and he had other women in his life. And so I did just the opposite of what you dream you're gonna do like shoot him or back a camper against a garage and drop a man there.

Katie: 35:05

I imagined all kinds of things, but I wound up just letting him move out and decide who he wanted and I finally said you know what, if you can't choose me, then you're choosing because I'm the mother of your kids. You know, in my mind it's very hard, very hard to break up your family, very hard to let that go, because, especially if you come from divorce. You don't want to repeat that and you don't want your kids to have to go through that, but anyway. So yes, I was like 36. And my degree was in. Well, my initial degree was in sociology, social studies, psychology and education, and then I had really wanted to become a school counselor, and so my master's was in counseling. I could have used somebody that I could have talked to when I was going through my particularly teenage years, and so I wanted to be that person for other kids. You know my career was dedicated to trying to make the life of all kids better.

Kellie: 36:04

And you did a beautiful job with that, in the work that you did, especially when Erin and I came into your life and we got to know you and you were a school principal. But share with us the journey from when you brought the kids back to Colorado. You were a single mom. You'd had your surgery, you'd gone through the divorce. So all of that loss was now behind you and you're planted back in Colorado and you have some incredible history with Colorado, I know, with your dad and the mountains in Georgetown. That's a whole episode in and of itself, but would love to hear about your journey into your career at that point.

Katie: 36:46

Okay, so my first job, a school had actually interviewed me and flew me down and wanted to hire me out of college, but then when I moved down there, they didn't have a job for me, partly because I was not a man, it was still that world so because they needed coaches for football and things, and so you know, that's just how it goes, and a lot of their marriage, a lot of their degrees were in social studies. But my first job just to highlight some of the things in my actual counseling I wound up at a small school in Colorado school district in Colorado. That was about a 45 minute drive, and so this is when you're starting to incorporate job career with poor kids that are moving into preteens and well, our preteens and moving into high school. And so, as a mother, at that time, tj was in sports, michelle played the piano and Nicole played the piano and Christine was a gymnast. They all had their lessons in Greeley, colorado, and I lived in Eaton, colorado, which was a small town, and so I'm trying to get home I got 45 minutes and then take them all to all the places they had to go, plus go watch TJ's games or Michelle played ball, you know, just all the mom stuff and so. So anyway, it was, it was a busy time and in my career they let me teach half time and then I was the school counselor for the other half of the time. So in my first year of counseling I had two kids commit suicide and I was working with the junior high kids and so yeah, I kind of look back on that when I said that and felt teary.

Katie: 38:25

I ran a lot of groups when I was counselor. I had a lot of different groups that I ran in death and divorce, child abuse, alcoholism, kids you know all kinds of things, but this one girl. There were several kids that were in my emotionally disturbed group. One of them the last day of school she brought shaving cream to school and she was also in my social studies class and so I hadn't really seen a big change in her behavior. But her mother had come out as gay and of course this was back in the 80s and so I'm sure that you know she should talk to me about it and it was a troubling time. But anyway, she was kicked out of school the last day because she brought shaving cream.

Katie: 39:07

I didn't really know that that had happened. You know when, the last moments of the last day of school. Things are happening all over the place and so I wasn't real aware of that, but anyway, this other girl in my group her name was Alicia she walked her home. She was worried about her because Colleen was devastated, and I guess all the way home she told Alicia that she was going to kill herself, and so when they got home Alicia thought she had talked her out of it. But Pauline actually hung herself because what she had tied around her neck wasn't tight enough. So she just hung herself until she died.

Erin: 39:43

Oh tragic.

Katie: 39:44

So when we talk about dealing with death and all, I've dealt with some really difficult in my first year. And then soon after that there was a boy who or during that time frame, it might have been before her he played Russian roulette and he died. Anyway, that led me into a lot of studying about suicide and prevention and went to conferences with the top gurus at the time to try to better understand it. You know that why? You know, I mean, it's just, and, as you know, my son-in-law just killed himself a couple of years ago. So and then, just to continue that little thread, alicia that had walked with her would call me up all summer long and tell me Pauline's told me to jump in front of a truck today, and so then I'd call the school psychologist, you know, and I live 45 minutes away, but I was kind of her outlet. She would talk to me like I would talk her out of it, talk her down from it. Somehow I was the lifeline. Eventually I moved on in my career and moved out of that town. But I heard that her senior year she finally poured gasoline all over herself and set herself on fire and killed herself. Oh my goodness, yeah.

Katie: 40:55

So you know we don't always know the pain people are in, no matter how hard we try. You just don't know and you don't know people's ability to withstand some of those things. And find strength, as I say, I truly found strength in my faith and I learned to trust, to trust God and to trust the universe, that everything you know was going to be okay. I mean, I didn't have some thinking that I you know that it was going to go away or anything, but just you just learn to trust that there's something greater than you. Working in your life and I'm kind of digressing a little bit but in my life, every time life's been difficult, I've either had a situation or a person come into it at just a really critical time and helped me through it. You know, it could be like I got a job when I was desperate and it might not be the job I was dreaming of, but I got a job. But no, those were just tragic, tragic introductions to and, of course, through the years you know like in one of my recommendations that I had out for my 80th birthday, a psychiatrist or psychologist, school psychologist, said that I could get people to tell me things, not that I could get them not manipulating, but people would tell me things that they wouldn't could get them not manipulating, but people would tell me things that they wouldn't tell a soul. So you know, that's kind of a gift, but I frequently here it comes back to faith.

Katie: 42:16

There were times when I was truly didn't know how to handle a situation with the child. I would actually sit there in my office and ask God to work through me and I just kind of give it to him because I really didn't know what to say. Or do you know, like a girl's been raped by her father for the last five years and she's only like 13 then and you know, not growing up in that world, you know there were constantly things that a couple of things that touched my heart when I was a counselor. There were two instances where parole officers called me and would say that they just wanted me to know that I was the only person in the world that their parolee thought and believed in them. I spent maybe three hours total with them and in that short a period of time I made that kind of a difference. Does that make sense? Sorry, I'm getting into heavy duty stuff. You might not have wanted to ask this question.

Kellie: 43:11

No, Katie, these conversations are so important and they're why Aaron and I felt so compelled on the heels of working on the project which we're calling the Boxes right now, and Our Mother's Legacy, why we wanted to start the podcast, was to have these bigger, broader conversations about all aspects of life, of love, of loss, and the legacy we leave through how we live, and what do people recall and what do they remember and what stays with them after we're gone. And that's everything that you just talked about, and, honestly, none of what you shared although much of it is new to me doesn't surprise me, because people do come into your life at just the right time for just the right reason. That's become a common theme, and you did the exact same thing for us. I think it was sad that our mom had to leave the earth as early as she did, and she was both mad and sad about that reality and it was very difficult for her to say goodbye.

Kellie: 44:18

At the same time, there's always been a piece of me and we've had some differences and we've had some challenges and obstacles to overcome, just like any family that loves each other does, and families that are merging and come together have to do. But I've always believed that if our mom could handpick anybody to take on that big role in the next phase of our life, it would have been you, and that's a big part of I know where my faith comes in and my gratitude, my deep appreciation for and connection to you, because you are a person who can hear anything and, with patience and gentleness and kindness and love and wisdom, help guide through that. And you have done that in so many ways for me personally, for my children. You have really stepped in and done it for Erin and I in ways and in places and times where we weren't sure how we were going to figure it out with each other, and you were there for us. And so none of that surprises me. That's just the beautiful part of who you are and the legacy that you're living in this life right now and we're lucky enough to get to share it with you.

Erin: 45:35

I completely agree.

Erin: 45:36

I was going to say the exact same thing.

Erin: 45:38

None of that surprises me.

Erin: 45:41

My heart just breaks for all that you've had to face and endure and the tragedies to face and endure and the tragedies, but you handle everything in your life with such grace and wisdom and you know the things that people have said about entrusting you with secrets, and you know deep conversations and I mean I feel that it's who you are so loving.

Erin: 46:06

It's who you are so loving, so non-judgmental, full of love and compassion and a safe space. And it's wild because you may think that you don't always know what to say or have the answers, but 99% of the stuff I know that I've personally entrusted you with and brought to you and needed help guiding through, you always know just what to say. You always have the most perfect words at the most perfect time and I think that that is who you are and that is a gift. Wherever that comes from right, and if that is inspired by your faith or just the voices of people that have spoken truth into your life that you've then just held on to and and then been able to capture those words and moments and pay it forward and bless somebody else, it's beautiful.

Katie: 47:04

When I hear it from you two, i t's very humbling. You know, I was thinking, when Kellie started talking, that when I actually became your stepmother I used to talk to your mom sort of like I said I believe in God. I really didn't quite know how to be a stepmom, even though I had a really good role model with Winnie in many ways but I just wanted so much to be the best person that I could be for each one of you and I loved you from the beginning in terms of, as I say, you're God's children and you're your mom and dad's children, and I gave that to you. You know how you just you start a relationship with that and I knew that there's no way. I guess I felt like you know, your mom sounds like she was an amazing woman, not only just in her expertises and all of her gifts. There's no way I could compete with any of that. And then also, I couldn't be your mom Even though you were only 17,.

Katie: 48:04

You still had been off at high school, and I'm trying to remember the name of it... (Erin): Yeah, Fountain Valley. Yes, so you had been off at Fountain Valley for several years and learned to live without your mother or your father in your everyday life. You know, I know they were a part of your life. I'm not suggesting that, but I'm just saying you'd learn to live independently in a lot of ways. And then Kellie's, this young mother. So I kind of went with, as I say, talking to your mom and I'd say, just guide me please. You know, if it was a place that was challenging or I didn't know, I would just ask her to guide me. And then I kind of was a mom to you, the way I was a mom to my kids, in the sense that I'd sew for them or I'd cook for them. You know, whatever, just try to be there for your kids. But I remembered, like making their a black dress that you wanted to wear. I think it was to a college thing and you had knew exactly what you wanted and so I made it for you and it looked amazing on you. But for me that was giving my mother's love to you. That was what I had to share with you, if that makes sense.

Katie: 49:10

And then loving both of your children. We felt pretty strongly about treating everyone the same. When we got married. We agreed on it that we were going to treat everybody the same as best we could and we have. I think we both did our very best to do that and to love in our way. You know your dad loves and has certain things that he does, and I have certain things I do, and then you also discover things in yourself, Like I discovered things in me. I have to say that I didn't necessarily imagine what amazingly wonderful people you two were and I always saw your mother through each one of you. I never really dreamt of how much you know I was just trying to be this mother to you or friend whatever, but I never dreamt that I would reap the kind of love and gratitude that I feel from you two and from your children.

Kellie: 50:07

Katie there's so much to unpack and thank you for all of that. You know, one of the ways that I felt like our mother showed up through you was through all of the things that you shared the sewing, the cooking and as we aged at least for me when our mom got her terminal diagnosis, I think that there was a part of me, at the tender age of 23 and preparing to get married, that truly believed because she'd already come through two cancer diagnoses that she would also come through this one. And in my youth and naivety and immaturity you're so focused on your own life. You know you're in your early 20s, you have all these dreams and hopes and you're envisioning all these things for your life. And my life was playing out pretty differently at that time than I had planned or anticipated. So I was pivoting. But when she got her diagnosis, the hardest parts for me were her sadness and anger and lack of understanding partially because of her upbringing at what she had done so wrong in her life that this was her penance, which was hard. But we were also just starting to become friends and I've shared this with Aaron. It's one of the things that has saddened me the most about how young she was when our mom passed, because she was just 17 and going into her senior year of high school.

Kellie: 51:47

And when you stepped into our lives, we had the chance to develop a friendship, and so I got all of these beautiful aspects of the things that our mother did all through our upbringing the art, the creativity, the sewing, the cooking. You were active, outgoing, intelligent, well-educated, well-spoken, you loved to read. You shared books. I remember when you gave me the Prophet by Kahil Gibran, and I still read and love that book to this day. But you were also able to so eloquently but with your own gifts and wisdom, step into that place of friendship, and that has made a real impact in my life. So I thank you for that.

Erin: 52:36

I echo that, and we have talked so much about this that the gift of you, Katie, gave me the opportunity to build a relationship with

Erin: 52:51

a mom that wasn't my mom. om You know? And so there were so many things that I missed out on with her, but I got to have those with you and I wouldn't trade that for anything. You know we've talked so much about your timeline, right Ages and experiences, but when you and Pop got married, I was 19. It was right before my 20th birthday and I'm the youngest of the seven. Right, right, I was the only one still a teenager. They were all older. Now I'm the only one in my 40s. I like to rub that in every deck every decade.

Erin: 53:36

It's great. I'm the only one still in my 20s, I'm the only one still in my 30s, and now here I am the only one still in my 40s. They're all old, but you know, our family blended, we all came together, and especially the kids. You know the seven of us kids, but we were all adults. Everyone was out of the house and you know, doing our thing, and so I think there is an element to that that, you know, allowed us to have an adult relationship from the getgo.

Erin: 54:09

But that need to be mothered in some capacity never goes away.

Erin: 54:15

I mean, I still feel that today, and I know that the two of you do as well.

Erin: 54:20

And so you did just strike this incredible balance from the beginning of mothering and friendship, and the mothering aspect from you was so, it was so gentle and it felt so intentional, and I think that that's probably a fair, even assumption, to make on your behalf, because we had so many conversations, especially in those early years, where you made sure to verbally express that you were not trying to replace our mom and you did such a beautiful job of keeping her memory alive and talking about her and incorporating her into stories and traditions and all of that, and it was such a beautiful thing.

Erin: 55:09

And so from the beginning I think we knew where you stood and we knew what your intentions were and I had so much respect for that Now I have way more respect for that than I even did back then, but it did allow me to open my heart and let you in and, like Kellie said, it didn't come without some level of difficulty at some level, at moments blending families but I've always held this immense amount of gratitude and recognition for who you have been in our lives and you've just really held that role so beautifully. Thank you, I love you.

Katie: 55:50

I love you too.

Katie: 56:16

What came to my mind when you guys were talking and talking about our becoming a kind of an instant family in its own way, and I was thinking about how your dad and I wouldn't have gotten officially I mean, we wouldn't have had a big wedding if it wasn't for our children but both of us felt like we needed to have something that was significant for all of you, to kind of bond you and blend you together. It doesn't make everything perfect, but you know what I mean, and so I don't know if you guys remember or even knew. I don't even know if my kids do, but in my bouquet it was very, very intentional, because I had a wildflower for each one of you, including one for Lori, and then I had herbs around it on the bottom. That were our four parents. They had nurtured your dad and I. The whole wedding was very symbolic and, as I say, it was very intentional. Didn't have anybody else, but it was just the seven of you with whoever you were with at the time and babies.

Kellie: 57:12

And and that's all a lot to unpack. Still.

Erin: 57:17

I think we're gonna have many more episodes about this...

Katie: 57:22

I remember having little gifts in each one of your rooms and for you two. I always knew that there's a side of it. That could have been very difficult because your mom hadn't been gone that long, really, when your dad and I met, but you just jumped in with both feet and all of you, you know we've got that whole, like you said, our whole Oprah of stories with you and TJ and this and that you know. So we've got lots of stories of different things that happened that demonstrated family. But we put a lot of emotional energy into trying to blend our family at least to where they could all look at each other with another person to have your back as much as anything. You know another person that would be there for any of you and I know that. You know my children have felt strong friendships with both of you, so it worked, especially for not living together. You know if you, if you live together for a while, you just have a lot of different kinds of memory.

Kellie: 58:21

And that comes with all of its own circumstances too, right, you know, one of the things that I have kind of been grateful for as an adult is that we all did come together as adults and we were an instant family. When Aaron and I came together with mom, with pop and Scott, we were all younger and so we did all live together in the same house. It was a beautiful experience, but it also had its. It came with its moments and, on the heels of losing Lori in that car accident, there was also a lot of grief in the household during that period of time to just establishing a new normal. As you were talking, katie, I was thinking about our inside family joke that we have a family bush, not a family tree, and I love to think in parables. And as I was thinking about that family bush and as much as I love to garden and you and I have that in common and Erin with her succulents, we all have that in common it's both the pruning and the nurturing that builds strong roots.

Kellie: 59:30

And we came together, our little family bush, and over the course of all of these almost 30 years there's been a lot of pruning. We've lost children, we've lost marriages, we've lost family members, we've lost health, we've lost memory, we've lost eyesight, youth eyesight. There's a lot of loss. That all comes with its own grief, but it's through both the nurturing and the pruning that I feel as a family.

Kellie: 1:00:02

While we may not be in touch with each other especially the seven of us as children every single day, day in and day out, there is strength. We are robust, we are really rooted. We have this incredible core of you and pop and all of these offshoots, and now we have our children, who have the most beautiful relationship with you and Pop, and I will speak just for our four children love you to the moon and back times a thousand. And now, with all of them starting to have children and watching you and Pop enter that next phase of your life, as we are entering the next phase of our life, and looking to you for guidance and wisdom and also looking at you with respect, appreciation, some apologies for past behaviors. Quite honestly, the number of conversations that Marcus and I have when something happens with one of the kids we're like, oh, I imagine when Pop and Katie, they probably sat out on the porch and had the same conversation about us that we're having about ours right now.

Erin: 1:01:23

Yep.

Kellie: 1:01:26

To me, that's family and that is one of the greatest gifts of being a part of this family and I hope that anybody listening to our podcast in this journey that Aaron and I are on, and all of the friends and family and people we don't know that we're bringing in and having these conversations, just gain some little bit of perspective or hope or connection in hearing the stories that are being shared here and helping that kind of connect to their own journey in life and their own experiences and their own stories, especially for people who are struggling with grief over whatever their losses are that these stories just inspire at some level, because I continue to be inspired every single day by our own family.

Erin: 1:02:19

Yeah, it's totally true. You know what else is interesting? I just want to touch on this really fast and not spend a lot of time, but piggybacking off of what you just said, Kellie, about how, yeah, you know, we were young and when Pop married Mom and brought Scott into that marriage and we had this beautiful blending of our family, right, and so we just grew up thinking that that's what blended families look like, that's normal, everybody just comes together so perfectly, and then we both got divorced, right. But then, Katie, you come into the picture with your four kids and you had been married and divorced before and you know, came in with these kids and this mindset and these conversations with Pop about what was really important and what were kind of non-negotiables and what you wanted to build your family on. And I can't help but just have this side conversation and think about I went through my first divorce from my kid's dad and then, pretty hot on the heels of that, went into a second marriage and I had really grandiose expectations, I guess, of what that was going to look like and thinking, oh, I can do this. I'm a product of blended families. I know exactly what this is supposed to look like.

Kellie: 1:03:48

It took me almost a year of counseling after getting together with my second marriage, Erin, to realize after the counselor said to me probably you know 50 or more times, you realize that's not normal, right?

Erin: 1:04:03

Yeah, right. And I knew that. But I still found myself in this second marriage with my two you know teenage boys and becoming the stepmom to three teenage boys and thinking to myself that I knew, I knew what I was doing and I had these beautiful models of blended families and what life was supposed to look like and it was really great until it was not. And I remember the heartache and the struggle that I faced when my second marriage was ending in thinking how, how did that happen? Like, how did that fail? Like I knew what I was supposed to do and I thought I, you know, blending families was easy for people like me and just had these, just this vision of what blending families and life was going to look like. And then it did not look like that and I struggled with so much, with so many feelings of failure and disappointment and the pain that I had exposed my kids to right and so much regret.

Erin: 1:05:21

And some of the most beautiful conversations and the time that I felt most held by my family was when I was walking through that and I had the two of you and the rest of our family saying what we experienced the blending of our families that's atypical and I just felt so loved and supported through a season of my life where I had these big, beautiful visions of what family is and looks like and then my family unit just kind of fell apart at that time.

Erin: 1:06:00

I can look back on it now with very different eyes and recognize so much of it for what it was, but at the time it felt so defeating and I'm so grateful that I had the love and the wisdom from people who'd walked through so many of those life experiences before me to say, one, you're going to be okay and two, we've got you.

Erin: 1:06:28

And I felt that so strongly from you and from your kids.

Erin: 1:06:33

You know, we've kind of always never really used the word step in our family, right? Like those are my sisters and brother, and so I felt so loved and supported from my family. And that's just one example of countless, many of births and graduations and, you know, all sorts of life events that we've all just been present for each other, for, even if we're not physically present, that we've just always been a champion for each other and we've always had each other's backs. And I have known without a shadow of a doubt that there is a list of people that I could call for anything anytime, and I'm so grateful for what you have modeled in a true family and what that looks like and what that feels like. Carry on Kellie...

Kellie: 1:07:25

Well, the visual part of that was us all holding up hearts to each other because we had no words. You know, Katie, we have, as that family, navigated a lot of grief, but also a lot of growth and new beginnings with each other. What did it feel like, from your perspective to become a mom of three grown children?

Katie: 1:07:51

So are you talking about from the beginning or today?

Kellie: 1:07:55

Let's talk from the beginning, because that leads into today. I think that there's such beautiful perspective of how we initially all came together. We had to navigate a lot during that time because we were nine adults and here we are, 30 years down the road, all with families of our own. Many of us have become grandparents now and in those three decades together we have all navigated a lot of life experience and a lot of loss. We've had to love and support and nurture each other through some really difficult and challenging times, but again, we've always maintained our roots. We've all stayed part of this really big, beautiful, growing family bush part of this really big, beautiful, growing family bush.

Katie: 1:08:52

I think that in the very beginning it was really easy for me to embrace you as Lew's children, or Pop's children, you know, whatever you want to refer to him, because I embraced him and so, probably because of our previous conversations, in our choosing to get married there was almost simultaneously the choice to bring you into my heart, bring you into my life. And so in the very beginning I would say and it's probably a little bit the same with all you kids is that my children embraced your dad, partly because I loved your dad and they saw him as somebody good in my life. And so I'd say in the very beginning, that sort of set the stage and I knew good and well, and partly because of Whitney that being a friend. But then, as time's gone by, I've had some amazing conversations with you girls, each of you as you've gone through your lives and your experiences, and also observing your different strengths and talents emerge and develop and then watching you both really become yourselves, if that makes sense. You know, in the very beginning you were kids that had lost your mom, you were her children. So in the very beginning you were children who had lost your mom. So many emotions, going through that. And then you've gone through, as you say, divorces, having children, careers, you know all sorts of things. But as we've gotten into the last, say, five years, it's kind of interesting in some ways to talk to you sort of as a mom, because we've been together for 30 years, so I've watched you grow up and do all of these things and go through these things.

Katie: 1:10:29

And I found myself, for instance, with Erin, when she was going through the number two divorce hey, look at this. I said, look at who you are, look at who you've been. This was kind of a no-brainer from my perspective, but because of my own life and you know I've gone through the same thing and I know what that feels like and you can lose your faith in yourself, you can lose your faith in anything that you had faith in. So I guess you know the bottom line is that we can have those conversations, we have the kind of relationship that when things are really tough, that we can process together, that we can talk, and that's about as close to being a mom as you can be and also the way that your children love me and the way they're so good to me. You both have taught your kids to appreciate me and now you know I'm getting older. I'm just seeing that. I know I'm not your mother but, if this makes sense, I feel more like a mother than I did 30 years ago. Does that make sense?

Erin: 1:11:28

Mm-hmm. Well, that's just really beautiful. I love that you see yourself that way.

Kellie: 1:11:56

Now that we have celebrated your 80th birthday... and kudos to you, Katie. I have to brag on you real quick. First of all, you went skiing in Flagstaff on your 80th birthday, came out of that experience with a hairline fracture and just a few weeks later went hiking in Utah for your 80th birthday trip with Pop, went home and continue to work on your gardens and your flowers and your tree-studded hillside where you planted all the trees, that you pulled out all the blackberry bushes by hand.

Kellie: 1:12:33

Honest to goodness, you are a force of nature and we love celebrating how much you do, how active you are. You continue to work. Pop continues to work. I love that. He's driving a school bus and engaging with all of those kids on a daily basis. I think it's amazing. You've never slowed down. Your memory is great. You're still so actively involved in your community and in every single one of our lives. What have been some of your favorite funny, standout, even difficult or hard memories over the last 30 years of all of us together as a family?

Katie: 1:13:17

Well, the birth of all of your children, because I was there for everyone except for Lily and Michael, for Reese or for Finn.

Katie: 1:13:24

But just being present there and being present there to watch all of you become young parents yourselves, that was very joyful. And then of course, you know the story of Aaron visiting TJ when he was a rookie cop and her being this child that was testing all the boundaries at that time. That agony he went through because he was a brand new brother trying to keep you safe when you wanted to go to Venice Beach, and he was so stressed because he didn't want Pop to get mad at him. But for me it's a really fun memory and to hear either one of you tell it is just fun for me. Yeah, kelly, seeing the dolphins off the boat in Florida. We were driving all night and so you guys were on duty and you came and got us and that was one of the most spiritual I can't even describe it and to share that and to have the memory of sharing that, if that makes sense oh, it does.

Katie: 1:14:20

That was an incredible moment in time, it was yeah.

Katie: 1:14:23

And so you know that's a highlight. And then, of course, watching Erin graduate from college. And I knew about Erinn graduating from high school because your dad showed me the pictures of the dress that he helped pick out and pictures of her with the flowers on her hair and all that. So, even though I wasn't in your world yet, he showed me all those things as they happened. I was really proud. Pop's 70th birthday and having virtually everybody there I mean the joking that went along between all of you.

Kellie: 1:14:56

All packing into large Marge to go to Casa Bonita!?!

Katie: 1:15:02

Exactly! I was just looking at that. I was actually did Logan's book and so I have a. There was a picture, you know, of everybody packed in that I. It's just so fun and when we actually do get together it gets crazy. In fact, sometimes I used to feel sorry for you and Aaron, because you're both kind of quiet and gentle and peaceful. You know, just in everything. And between Scott and my four kids Nicole wasn't rowdy, but three of my kids and Scott, I mean it got wild, and then Jason too. Oh my gosh, it used to get really wild and funny and innocent, you know, nothing bad, but just a fun, crazy family that all you guys made.

Katie: 1:15:43

So you know, there are those moments, like the picture of my dad on his 90th birthday. We had Charles and Hadley and Jordan. I'm not sure if Jordan was there, but anyway they were screaming, crying. There were three of the babies and everybody's on my dad's lap on this big couch. The babies are just crying. And there's a picture of my dad and he plugged his ears for the fifth picture and Reis is over here and he is about ready to split a gut he's laughing so hard. And then we were at that special weekend in Denver. I think there was a group there that had a big gathering. That was very different.

Katie: 1:16:20

Watching the kids and their faces as they go up and down the elevator, I have to say and I frequently say it to my friends is that being a part of this family, it's just part of what makes getting old, gives you energy, you know. Then they talk about the things people need to include in their lifestyle to be healthy physically, mentally, emotionally and all that. Trust me, your dad and I read them all the time, make sure we're up on it and we aren't falling behind on any. But I have to say that a lot of the motivation and what kind of keeps us young is having the family that we have and having them love us and their kids love us. And the grandchildren are really an amazing joy because they're still young. You know, like when Logan took care of my brother as a young family and it changed Bruce's life to be living with younger people that are vibrant, that have got children, and you know we're really lucky because it's pretty much never ending. Our friends are all kind of jealous because we're just not available frequently. As I say, the grandkids, especially your kids they stay in touch and that keeps you young. Even if they don't write me something, they respond when I write them things and it's just attitude. You know, I really believe that almost all of life is attitude and I've kind of always lived that way.

Katie: 1:17:41

I used to have a live with a lot of different posters in my house during the 60s and 70s, and you've probably seen some, but one of my favorite was this is beginning of a new day. You can waste it or you can grow in its light and be of service to others. And then it says just be careful what you choose. You know how you choose to make this day. And then it says just be careful what you choose. You know how you choose to make this day.

Katie: 1:18:06

I've just not ever really made like when I went through my mastectomy and I went through, you know, hysterectomy and I went through losing the baby and just all the different kinds of things that have happened in my life. I've never made them be more important than gratitude for being alive, if that makes sense. Like I've never been the person to say I had a bad day, because I'm saying, you know, because you had that one really shitty thing happen, it doesn't have to make the whole day bad, and I always, every morning I get up and I thank God and I just say and it's repetitive and so it's not as magical but I just thank him for the day, for my life and for his love, and that's just how I live my life. And I'm referring partly to what Kelly was talking about, because I've been pretty sick Sounds like you have too.

Katie: 1:18:49

I was coughing so bad that I blew out my eardrum and so you know you've got all this stuff going on and you're just sick for a couple of weeks and it feels whelmy, but I couldn't wait to get out in my yard and pull weeds and part of it is just kind of showing I'm alive and like cleaning houses. It's so gratifying and it has no responsibility. You're responsible, you don't want to break anything, but it just again makes me feel like I'm doing something worthwhile. Yeah, it's cleaning houses, but I'm just full of gratitude that my boss will hire an 80 year old woman. When I think about it, a lot of my boss will hire an 80-year-old woman. When I think about it, a lot of my life is very intentional.

Kellie: 1:19:27

I don't know if that makes sense, but it just is. It makes a lot of sense and it's really beautiful and you and Pop are doing it together and navigating it together.

Katie: 1:19:35

We're probably closer than we've ever been. I was actually going to ask you if you could share with us how, with all of us grown and gone and raising families of our own and going through our own many life experiences and now going through experiences with our own children and grandchildren that come with its own obligations of time and energy and effort and commitment and wisdom and trying our hardest to pay that forward If we can get a sneak peek into the life that you and pop are enjoying in these really sweet and special years.

Katie: 1:20:16

Well, you know, it's been an amazing journey and all the things that you've talked about in terms of challenges through the years have brought out our strengths and our weaknesses. And you know, your dad I didn't even know this until two years ago, it was an interesting revelation, but it made sense Said that all these years he's been afraid of losing me because he said he's lost your mom, he's been afraid of losing me because he said he's lost your mom, he lost his mom, he lost Laurie, and he said he hadn't really let himself love me until just five years ago. And we've married 30. That doesn't mean he wasn't good to me, it didn't mean we didn't have fun. It doesn't mean a lot of things, but it kind of tells you where we've been.

Katie: 1:20:59

And I am a very independent, ornery person. I mean I was single all those years. I wouldn't have made it through my life if I wasn't those things, and I don't need to be coddled. All you need is someone who loves you, right. But since he went through that and I'm sure part of it is our age or you know, I can't tell you what, but we're actually broken down as human beings into more being equals. It's like now we are sharing a time in our life that we only can share with each other. If that makes sense Doesn't mean we don't love our kids and all those. I'm talking about our relationship, and we've really begun. It's like, don't sweat the small stuff. We've true that out I don't know about seven years ago, because we could get into our toothpaste wars. And I'm not trying to be critical of our past. I don't want you to think that, but it feels very different to feel love like full on love, and so for me in my life it couldn't have happened at a better time because you really do need each other. Now we're just I can't even explain it, but it's. It's very, very tender, it's very sweet, it's very real.

Katie: 1:22:15

You know, before we started to work, we had sold our boat and that had been a huge part of our life. It was our family, our finance. People always said your kids and your family are the boat. One of them's got to go and so we wound up selling the boat. So anyway, we kind of were lost, and it's been a very interesting transition for us to not really be needed.

Katie: 1:22:38

You guys, as you said, you're parenting your own children. Now your grandparents are your own grandchildren. They need you, like you needed us, and as much as you call us or are thoughtful or you know those kinds of things, it's a fact. It's kind of like if you guys are being good grandparents and good parents, we've done our job. So it's a sign that we were role models. So now it's just kind of us.

Katie: 1:23:02

We're actually act more like children, which could be our brains I mean, it could be dementia, I don't know. We tease all the time. It's like the weight of the world has kind of come off our shoulders in some ways, I guess, and we're just down to the simple act of taking care of each other. In fact, christine, when she was here last year, she said you know, when I came here I was thinking that somebody's going to have to start really helping you two out, and then I saw how you're filling in for one on each other and how you're taking care of each other and you don't need anyone. You know what I mean. Like a big interview, we're not ready for that yet.

Katie: 1:23:41

But also when we were sitting there having this conversation, we both were feeling worthless and that's very hard to go through for the two of us and we're going through it at the same time. And so I said you know, I'm going to, I'm just going to get a job I need to do. I mean, I cannot sit around all day long and do nothing. You know, I'm just not that person. I don't play bridge, I don't do any of that, those kinds of things. I'm not a big shopper. So I just decided to start cleaning the RBOs because it keeps me in shape and I get paid for it.

Katie: 1:24:10

And we both had volunteered a lot. You know, I was on boards and then he was doing island rides where he was taking people to get their groceries, and our finances had gotten pretty tight. So we said, well, let's just go out and make money. And so I got my job and then he decided to try for a bus driver's job. It was an amazing transformation, all that he had to accomplish to be a bus driver. It's actually pretty mentally and emotionally challenging, and he accomplished that which he needs to be learning you know, at a whole different level.

Katie: 1:24:45

I learn every day and I've said often to my kids, I've said you know what, the day that I don't stop learning, just might as well shoot me, because you have to keep alive and you have to find different things to make you feel alive. And it's very different. We all know we could die any alive and it's very different. We all know we could die any day, but it's very different to know that there is an end to this and that you're on the downward slide. I don't know if that answers your question, but I couldn't have asked for a better husband.

Katie: 1:25:15

Every day I feel so blessed with every single person in our lives All of our children, all of them and so proud person in our lives All of our children, all of them and so proud.

Katie: 1:25:25

And you know, we're just so blessed because we don't have any grandchildren that are heavy into drugs or they're all good kids and that's kind of what we all want is for them to be productive, happy, and they all are. You know, you imagine two old people sitting there and looking back and to know that we've shared all that and continue to share it just makes life so, so worth it. But we're fortunate because we both are pretty energetic and we're healthy and we're active and always have been, and so we get to be on almost equal footing. I just couldn't ask for more. Every day I'm married to him he's more amazing to me. You know that I attracted someone like him and that he's been happy all these years. It just means a lot, and I've told my friends, you know, at different times, just when we're kind of girl talk, I just say I just couldn't have asked for a better husband or a better partner.

Kellie: 1:26:19

That is an extraordinary gift and, as daughters, especially the journey that we've taken with Pop through the years especially him adopting both of us that makes our hearts really, really happy too.

Katie: 1:26:34

I think we both are more in love with each other than the day you know, and you know that from being in relationships, but we are, I think every day now we're more in love and more in tune with each other. If you're going to do it in life, this is a nice time to be doing it.

Erin: 1:26:50

Absolutely. Oh, I love that so much. I also love how you give that to all of us. All the kids, all the grandkids, all the great grandkids. And as relationships have come and gone and people come and go, you just embrace everybody. Your love is just seemingly endless. The care and compassion that you show as we've had blended families, you know of our own and the ways that you've embraced additional kids and grandkids and great grandkids is pretty special. That's very unique.

Katie: 1:27:29

Well, I don't know, I just know that you know, it kind of goes from me and I in the very beginning If you love someone, if someone's good to you, if someone makes you happy, then we love them. That make sense. Yeah, it's sort of like, in the very beginning you accepted me because you loved your dad and my kids accepted him because he loved me. Well, now, whoever you bring into your life, it's expanded Do you know what I'm saying? It's expanded now to where we love and take these people into our beings almost. I mean, you know, and take these people into our beings almost.

Katie: 1:28:04

I mean you know, it's just funny how I'm sure you're feeling it with your own kids but you really feel a love for someone who loves your child, you know, and who's good to your child, like Molly or Marcus or any of them, you know. You just love them. And then but it's very interesting to me over time because I've had a bit of experience when our child gets a divorce, I can cut that relationship and they're not in my life anymore. I don't give that person any more of my energy, you know, and it's not because I don't like them, but it's just they're gone from your life. They're gone from my life because you're the person that I care about and you're the person that I love.

Erin: 1:28:49

Well, and I think that that's what is so amazing about that statement, and what we feel from you is that, for me, I just don't question where your loyalty lies. I know that your loyalty lies with me, and so it's so comforting and reassuring to know that, regardless of what happens, that that relationship is secure and I don't have to question that. And I know that I have a safe place to fall when I need to fall, and I have, you know, my biggest cheerleaders when I want to celebrate and just want love and support and encouragement you know, for positive things like you guys are always the first people.

Erin: 1:29:22

I want to share something fun.

Erin: 1:29:24

Yeah, absolutely. But you guys model that, the loyalty that you have to all of us, in such an incredible way that I don't think any of us ever questioned that.

Katie: 1:29:36

I hope not. Yeah, I hope not. That would be a feeling of failure for me.

Kellie: 1:29:40

Katie, I have a kind of a fun question.

Katie: 1:29:43

That sounds good.

Kellie: 1:29:46

This has all been fun.

Katie: 1:29:48

No, it has been. It's been great.

Kellie: 1:29:49

You know that Erin and I are working on a legacy project from the boxes that our mom left as her legacy to her children left as her legacy to her children, and one of the fun stories in that is Pop being the keeper of the secret boxes and we didn't know anything about them until they started being distributed. And you were really instrumental in ensuring the safety and security and location of the boxes so they could be delivered according to her wishes and her directives, and Pop has shared, with a lot of laughter and gratitude, your role in the times that you were traveling and living in the Bahamas on the boat and moving to different locations, you know, between Colorado and Orcas Island. Is there anything that you would love to share about how that experience was for you?

Katie: 1:30:55

The first one that I was there for was when Erin got a ring, and I think it was for her 18th birthday. Yep, you're exactly right, yep. And she got a beautiful ring, and I was really an outsider at that time I mean, it's brand new into you guys' world but I remember being there and being present and watching you open it up and, of course, the emotions were still so intense at that time. I just remember feeling really touched by all of it. That is something I probably would have done. It's kind of interesting, but I'm kind of that sentimental. My main thing, that is really important. It's one reason that I make the books for which your boys are getting them still, and so is Lily poor Lily, lily's next on the list now that I got Logan done. But I just really want people to know how much they've meant to me and how much I've loved them, and so your mom giving you those boxes is an example of something that I can imagine myself doing. I haven't ever had to.

Katie: 1:31:58

The funny part of it is, oh my God, one time I think it was a Rolex watch was misplaced and we were getting down towards the end, and so it was harder and harder to keep them all. But he'd have them, you know, on the boat. He'd have them in a drawer or somewhere, and different places, but then he'd panic. You know how when you think of something nice and safe and then when you need it you can't find it anywhere, well, he would stress out because he made a promise, it was important to your mom and it was important to him to follow through. You know there'd be moments of just panicking. You know, we've got to find the box. We've got to find the box. We've got to find the box.

Katie: 1:32:38

It was fun, you know, in reference to what Kelly's saying, but it was actually probably more, much more touching and real. You know, like, for instance, when he gave you the gift for your wedding and for a lot of them after that one ring, I really wasn't there. He did a lot of those things kind of privately with you, as he should have. But seeing pictures of some of those moments, you know, brings tears to my eyes and so I guess the bottom line is just that I thought it was really touching. Every time you, you know, had things and there were many times, to be honest, it's the strangest thing, especially in kind of the early months, I would feel guilty for being alive and that your mama had. Your mother had left you too, and I just feel sorry that she was gone from you, because I knew how much she meant.

Erin: 1:33:27

Thank you.

Erin: 1:33:28

Katie, I have never felt that. I have never felt that I would have traded one relationship for the other. I think Kelly said it so beautifully in the beginning, which is, you know, we were so grateful that our mom was our mom and we're so grateful for the years that we had with her right 17 for me and 24 for Kelly and regardless of her life or how long she would have lived like it's never enough time and I think that you could speak to that with the loss of your parents as well. Right, like it, just it's never enough time. You could have a whole lifetime of time and it wouldn't be enough.

Erin: 1:34:13

And so I hold immense gratitude for her being my mom and her life and giving me the gift of my sister. But I am really grateful that you came on the scene when you did and that you have been who you are in my life, in my kids' lives, in our lives. I've never felt any other way than that. So I want you to know how much we value you and your life and when you entered ours.

Kellie: 1:34:44

And the time that we have with you will not be enough. (Erin): True. (Kellie): I t'll be the same with Pop. Katie, as we wrap up today, as we celebrate Mother's Day and the love we have for both of our moms, is there anything that you would like to share, as a mother, when it comes to living life, navigating love, making your way through loss and leaving a legacy?

Katie: 1:35:15

I think I've pretty well talked about that in different ways.

Katie: 1:35:19

But in terms of Mother's Day itself, after I had my double mastectomy and I was down in Denver and my kids were up in Gunnison waiting, I took them each home a pet, because I said, of course you did, and then I got to take care of them, right?

Katie: 1:35:37

But I was trying to gift my children for giving me the gift of being a mother and now you two are giving me a very, very, very special moment as a mother in this podcast and I have one of my little fun sayings on my screen that goes by, that says that it's not what you've done, it's not blah blah. I can't tell you all that, it's a common saying, but it's who I raised and I've always said that that was the most fulfilling and gratifying and humbling thing that I've ever encountered in my life. And I've gotten to be a mom in different forms which has just expanded motherhood to a whole nother level by having you and Scott and Erin in my life, and my kids are all aware of that and are totally supportive. I just think that mothers and children just need to embrace the children in their lives and the love of those children and, as I say, it's the most important thing I've ever done in my life.

Erin: 1:36:42

Thank you, Katie. You know, Kellie and I, throughout this project and in every episode, we talk about the PIG and the meaning behind it us launching this podcast and the way that we live our lives through that being really driven by purpose, intention and gratitude. That's our P-I-G at the core of everything that we do. We have lots of other P words and I words and G words, but we do like to talk to all of our guests about that and, of course, you are no different and I don't know if you have any words that resonate with you. Do you have any P, I or G words that you feel led to share?

Katie: 1:37:31

Well, I kind of come from a different point of view with P I G, because I remember your mom's collection of pigs. She had every, every kind of pig. I actually think of your mom and you living out her legacy. And then you're living out her legacy also through other people and their legacies.

Katie: 1:37:53

And so I kind of see your mom as the springboard for all of this as it comes through YouTube. So I don't think there's any way I could have more wisdom than you three do about PIG, because I think you guys have it pretty well nailed.

Kellie: 1:38:11

Pop is great!

Kellie: 1:38:14

Yeah, he'll vote for that!

Erin: 1:38:16

Nailed it. Perfect.

Kellie: 1:38:20

Pop is goofy!

Katie: 1:38:22

He is goofy. Yes!

Kellie: 1:38:24

Pop is grandpa.

Erin: 1:38:26

Hilarious, that's perfect actually.

Katie: 1:38:29

Yeah, I'm trying to think of more words.

Kellie: 1:38:34

Katie, thank you for sharing this time with us today. Thank you for being so instrumental in our lives, in our sisterhood, in the lives of our families and our children, for embracing all of us. Thank you for being who you are and we hope you have the most beautiful, celebrated, cherished, know you are loved Mother's Day. We love you.

Katie: 1:38:58

Thank you for asking. I love you. I love you, thank you for asking me.

Katie: 1:39:16

I love you. I love you both.

The Sisters: 1:39:29

Hearing the stories of others helps us create a more meaningful connection to our own. We invite you to sit with today's conversation to reflect on your own story of life, love, loss and what legacy you're building. We encourage you to share today's or any episode with a friend, tag us on social media or join the conversation in our growing communities. You can also visit thePIGpodcastcom for more ways to connect. Finally, we would not be here without you To help us continue growing and expanding our reach. Please rate the PIG, leave a review and reach out if you have a story you'd like featured on a future episode, because this isn't just a podcast. It's a place to be reminded. Even in loss, hope truly does live on. Thanks for being part of this journey with us. Until next time, hogs and kisses everyone!