The Keeper of the Boxes: A Father’s Promise, A Family’s Legacy

Note: This is Part Two of a two-part series. For the full story, we encourage you to start with Episode 10: "Charting the Course: A Father’s Legacy of Loss, Love, & Living Well."

When our mom realized she wouldn’t live to see our birthdays, graduations, weddings, or the birth of our firstborn children, she created a legacy of love in the most tangible way she knew how—through a collection of hand-wrapped boxes, each containing a handwritten note and a deeply personal gift for life’s milestone moments still to come.

In this second part of our Father’s Day series, we sit down again with our dad—the man who became the Keeper of the Boxes. With quiet devotion and heartfelt resolve, he protected and delivered each one of those gifts over a decade, fulfilling a sacred promise made before our mother’s death in 1994.

These weren’t just boxes. They were time capsules of love, symbols of presence in absence, and a living expression of legacy that continues to shape our lives. In this emotional and unforgettable conversation, our dad shares what it meant to be the steward of such an extraordinary mission—and how the final delivery became a moment of profound closure, completion, and connection.

If you’ve ever wondered how to carry someone’s love forward… this is that story.

Chapters

• 0:00 Part Two of a Father's Story
• 8:30 Memories and Life Lessons
• 17:30 Becoming a Grandfather
• 22:00 A Life of Many Passions
• 31:30 The Story of the Boxes
• 47:00 The Labor of Love
• 1:02:30 The Final Box and Completion
• 1:12:50 Closing Thoughts on Legacy

Transcript

The Sisters: 0:05

If you haven't yet listened to part one of our conversation with our dad, we encourage you to start there, because we're picking up right where we left off. What began as a journey through his life, love and loss has now led us here, to the heart of the story, to the boxes, to the promises made and the promises kept. She knew she wouldn't be here for the biggest moments of our lives: graduations, birthdays, weddings, the birth of our children. So, before she died, our mom did something extraordinary. She wrapped up gifts, each one carefully chosen, with a handwritten note, and marked for milestone moments we hadn't yet reached. And our dad held on to them, guarding them, honoring her wishes and delivering them as she asked, at just the right moment. These were more than just boxes. They were time capsules of her love, a legacy she built with intention, and today we're sharing that legacy with the man who became the keeper of the boxes. This is part two of our conversation with our dad, a man whose steady presence and unwavering devotion helped preserve something sacred, something that became the heartbeat of The P-I-G. Part two of our conversation with our dad, a man whose steady presence and unwavering devotion helped preserve something sacred, something that became the heartbeat of The P-I-G and a legacy we're honored to carry forward. Welcome to The P-I-G, where we explore life, love, loss and legacy through real conversations and meaningful stories, with purpose, intention and gratitude.

The Sisters: 1:23

I'm Kellie and I'm Erin. We're sisters, best friends, sometimes polar opposites, but always deeply connected by the life and love of the woman behind the boxes, our mother Marsha. So settle in, take a breath, because this is the Boxes and the legacy that started it all.

Erin: 1:52

You know, I think about Pop, you and your life, and you know the families that you've built and kids that you've raised and your incredible career, and I feel like we just got a 30,000 foot view of your life and so many of the things that you've done, because there's so many other things that we could highlight that you've done and accomplished in your life. But I know for me and I think I speak for Kellie and probably all of us kids and grandkids and great grandkids that you have, you're such a pillar of strength, you are so wise that just that love of learning that you even reference, that you talk about, I've been witness to that my entire life, you know. I know that you read the encyclopedias growing up, because whenever I asked you to tell me anything about anything growing up. Your response was go look it up. Go look it up in the encyclopedia. And so it's incredible.

Erin: 2:56

But I think about you. You know, your strength, but also your resiliency. You know how you've faced so many of the struggles and trials that you've faced in your life and you know we've talked on this podcast even about mom. You know, coming into this world as a fighter, being born prematurely and having faced everything that she did, you know, in the 1940s. But you also have your own struggle, even through that time, as a child who was, you know, diagnosed with polio and all of the health struggles that you faced as a young man. And I think about grandma and grandpa and the incredible impact that they had on my life and I can only imagine that there's so much of who you are that is inherent. There's a lot of nature versus nurture things that we could talk about.

Erin: 3:55

But I know that so much of that strength and resilience that you have is not only just who you are, but it is also a product of how you were raised and what you were taught, and there's so many life lessons that flash in my mind of, you know, these one liners that I heard from you and mom growing up that are, also, you know, growing up, that are also, you know, echoes of lessons that grandma and grandpa taught you as a child and us as children.

Erin: 4:30

You know some decisions you make with your head and some you make with your heart.

Erin: 4:33

We can talk about all of these examples all day long, but I do want to recognize just what a good human you are, because the fact that you did step into our lives and raise us as your own and love us in the ways that you have, and that you've continued to do that even after mom died, and that you've continued to just show up and be such a pillar of strength, speak so loudly about your character and your integrity and the incredible man that you are, and you're an incredible husband and incredible father and an incredible grandfather, and you wear so many different hats and you are so many things to so many different people.

Erin: 5:22

You are an incredible physician, not only wise and skilled professionally, but coupled with just the incredible bedside manners that you have, because you're such a caring, compassionate human being, and I just really want to highlight who you and so many of these attributes that are so admirable but have come from a life that hasn't always been easy and I just really admire you and I admire the ways that you show up for the people in your life and how loyal you are. I'm so blessed to have been on the receiving end of your love for most of my life. Well, thank you. I'm so blessed to have been on the receiving end of your love for most of my life.

Pop: 6:08

Well, thank you, I'm blessed the other way that I'm able to do it for you, for anybody.

Kellie: 6:16

One of my favorite stories and I ditto everything that Erin said. We have cried a lot of tears together over the years on just the emotional side of becoming a family and, more importantly, staying a family. When you chose to adopt Erin and I which we'd love to hear a little bit about that experience for you from you it wasn't too many years later that mom had to say goodbye and when she left not of her own choosing there wasn't a missed beat at all. We were parents and we were children.

Kellie: 6:57

But there are men in the world who may have taken a different route, who may have chosen to say you know, I may have taken on that responsibility when I was married to your mom, but I'm not going to keep going with that responsibility, and I think that that speaks directly to your loyalty, your commitment and the depth of the connection that we all shared from the very get-go. There was never any question in our minds that we were unequivocally yours, period, always and forever, and it's been truly one of the greatest blessings of our lives. There aren't words to express the depth of that gratitude, especially on Father's Day.

Pop: 7:44

Well, thank you, that's a lot more of a gift than a tie.

Pop: 7:54

I love you guys, and I guess the only thing I can say is all these things you've said about it, but I remember when my first born that is not my first child born, but my first grandchild, which was Reese, which is Kellie, if you didn't know Before that happened, I had lots of friends that saw us as a family and they said how do you feel about becoming a grandpa? I said I have no idea. I said I've never been one before. I only had one grandfather because my dad's dad died when my dad was 17, 16. But my mother's father was a farmer in Kansas and I always thought about what he was like as a man. Therefore, I'm looking at him because he's a grandfather, my grandfather, but what he was like a man and then what my father was like a man, and I thought about and there, as a grandfather, especially as a grandfather, to try to get an idea of how I felt about becoming a grandfather. What does that mean? And I would tell those friends who were talking to me and I believe it completely is what I tried to do was oh, I don't know what I feel like being his grandfather, but I guess, if I have to put it in some kind of words is to try to instill in my grandchildren to be good people. And I set an example for that, for them, because that's the kind of example I saw my father as a grandpa and I saw my great grandpa as a grandpa. They were and you knew my father they were committed, they were very respectful of other people and very true to their work. And to me that's what I wanted to be an example, like my father, like my grandfather, because that's the only thing I could think of. What do I want to be as a representative? What do I want to be as a grandfather? And that is to have those children as they grow.

Pop: 9:54

My children, especially my grandchildren I mean go right down the list, whether it's you know, whether it's Reese or it's Hadley or it's you know, logan or you know the other half of this big blended family is to be there as an example and show those attributes of what they would have strived to grow up to be. And that's basically all I could do. And so I used what I thought came down from my great-grandfather, that I knew quite well, and then my father and I could become a grandfather, and it's a little bit different but very, very similar to how I would be a father is to have them see what I would like to have taught my children and therefore not so much teach but to show my grandchildren what it's like to be a parent, a person, a friend, an acquaintance, but to be an example of being a good person. And that's how I would answer. What am I going to do?

Pop: 10:58

Well, I haven't really been a grandpa yet, so all I can do is kind of look on where I have been a grandchild and a child and I like to raise my kids that way and, you know, for the most part, be a good example for them. Now, you know I have, I've failed in some of those areas, but I think the areas where I've I would hope that I've not failed outweighs the negatives, you know. But I appreciate you thanking me for that, for Father's Day and stuff, and and beyond, as it were.

Kellie: 11:29

Yeah, I think that's a great segue into something that Erin mentioned earlier Pop which is all of these incredible ways you have contributed outside of your family through all the decades - eight and a half decades of your living. You learned to fly before you could drive a car. You became a flight instructor. Later in life you learned to play music and, even though you did stay with music, you instilled music in the lives of all of us and then, in the later years of your life, in your retirement, decided to get into musicals and productions and learned how to sing and tap dance and perform in community theater, which was incredible.

Kellie: 12:21

You were in ski patrol and I know that was at a time when Lori and Scott were competitive ski racing and you did so much work with youth through ski patrol, from boating and navigating and boat races and being a celestial navigator, being, as Erin talked about, such a well-respected and skilled physician.

Kellie: 12:46

You're a voracious reader and learner and now, at 85 years old, are not only so actively involved in your community that I know how well-respected you are on Orcas Island for what you've done to contribute to that community, but you're a bus driver and I haven't shared this with you yet, but I'm gonna share it with you now.

Kellie: 13:15

I know unequivocally that those children who are in your care day in and day out on that bus and I know they're not always easy and not always perfectly well-behaved and there's a lot of challenge that went into becoming a bus driver.

Kellie: 13:26

It was very taxing and very challenging and kudos to you for doing it.

Kellie: 13:31

But the contribution that you are making in the lives of those children right now who years decades from now because I can still remember my favorite bus drivers in elementary school and in junior high the impact that you are making on the lives of those children, the stories that you've shared just with the two of us and also their parents, knowing that those children are in the safety and security of somebody who knows what he's doing and is committed to doing it well day in and day out, those are some lucky kids and I just I think what you're doing right now, at this stage of your life, is so admirable and I have so much respect for it. I echo all of that and it's also such an amazing example that you are setting for all of our kids. I mean I know that I speak for Weston and Hadley and Reese and Lily and Savannah, who those kids love, their grandpa, and who you are and how present you continue to be. It's just unmatched. They're so lucky to have you and I know they keep you young.

Pop: 14:51

Well, that's your nice Father's Day gift you guys have given to me with your words.

Kellie: 14:56

We love you, pop. I have a question for you. We want to talk a little bit more about the boxes as part two of this series of episodes featuring you in honor and celebration of Father's Day and your role as a father, as a grandfather, as a great-grandfather, and in all the ways you father, because you're again in your work right now, fathering children every day. But as you think about legacy and all of the roads that you have traveled, the journey you have taken through your lifetime, what's most important to you in these sweet years of your life and living, as you think about legacy and what it means and how we're living our legacy actively in the moment?

Pop: 15:52

Well, I think you know you're talking about the boxes and all that stuff and the legacy that, how I see it is, I'm not afraid when I do pass, but I guess it's the same thing I was saying earlier is that I would think my legacy is sort of, I would hope, be the legacy that I think of the most elder of people that I know in my family would be my grandfather, who's passed a long time ago.

Pop: 16:19

But in my mind, my legacy that I got from him is exactly what I talked about earlier.

Pop: 16:26

He's remembered to me and I know a lot of people as just a good human being and, that being said, be remembered as what each of the people that might think of me as a legacy, which would be my kids, my grandkids, my great-grandkids that I've known, that are old enough to know me we just talked about.

Pop: 16:53

I would hope that my legacy is a remembrance of who I was in all these aspects that you've talked about, and hopefully is remembered the legacy of what they would see as just a good human being. And I would also like to say my legacy, hopefully, would be that they would remember those aspects too, that they keep being good human beings and have that, you know, if it's appropriate. My legacy would be what, hopefully, is what you described that they would use that as a guiding light or something. You know, I, we both have talked about the fact that, with this huge push that we have, that knowing her and I agree with everything you said when you had your podcast with her and that I would hope that I would be the same, or that we as a couple are kind of the anchor of that push you know, and that's what I would hope my legacy might be.

Erin: 18:04

Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, you are the anchor, and that's the perfect analogy for you as well.

Pop: 18:11

Yeah, heavy old blob sitting on the bottom

Erin: 18:13

W hatever.

Kellie: 18:18

Far from that... Navigating through all sorts of waters and being the calm in the storm and keeping us all anchored and rooted um. I can't think of a better way to describe exactly who you are and the legacy you're living.

Pop: 18:39

We're all lucky, I think. We're all lucky. Yeah, so I was going to reflect back on what one of my bus kids which is fun. I get all these really fun comments, but I don't know if I've told you guys the ones about the little second graders who were going on a field trip. It was two classes of second graders, two different classes, so there were about 40 kids. We only have two bus routes, so in those 40 kids there was a small percentage that even ride the bus. So there's quite a few of the kids who do not ride the bus and a couple of the kids will ride in my bus and a couple of kids might ride in one of the other buses and then there's a lot of those kids that don't ride in any bus. But whenever the kids ride on the routes, we only have two routes. So we've got one route driver, which is me, and another route driver, which is another one, and we do have subs, but they don't necessarily drive the routes all the time. So the route drivers and the two and all the subs will tend to drive other than the routes at various times, like field trips or athletic events or whatever it is.

Pop: 19:47

So when the kids would go on a field trip, especially the second graders. They might go on some kind of field trip to go out to some farm, a petting zoo or whatever it might be, and so they all line up by the buses and they get on the buses, but the driver could be any one of us that drives field trips and stuff, and so some of those kids would have different drivers for like a field trip. And it was a month or two ago. They were going on a field trip and I happened to be the one driving the field trip that day and they were all lining up out there to get on the bus and one of the little second graders happened to be one of the kids that rides my route and the child turns around to the teacher and says I heard it and the teacher had told me the story too, turned around and tapped the teacher and said this is my own bus driver.

Kellie: 20:39

That is really cute, thank you.

Erin: 21:14

Okay, so for our listeners, if you've been with us since episode one, you've heard about the boxes, and today we get to hear from the one person who knew about the boxes all along Pop. You were the quiet keeper of one of the most meaningful gifts mom ever left behind and for decades you protected that story. We have given our listeners a tiny little glimpse into the boxes. Episode one is our interview with Chris Howard and the larger project that we're working on. But I'm really excited to hear more from your perspective about the boxes, not only the larger story, but then diving into a little bit that we've already talked about, and dive deeper into the weight of it, the love in it, all of the moments of those boxes and what they meant to you, and and we can dive into what was in each of those boxes.

Erin: 22:24

But as Kellie and I have been telling and retelling this story with Chris, it has become even more apparent in my mind, more so than it's ever been before, that this is a family story. It's not just my story or Kellie story or mom's story, but it's really a story that belongs to all of us. And, just like I mentioned earlier about the fact that we have all experienced the same scenario in wildly different ways and what the box's story meant to me is very different from what the box's story has meant to Kellie, has meant to Scott and then certainly has meant to you, especially having all of the knowledge of the boxes and being tasked as the keeper of those boxes until each moment. So I really want to dive right in pop to your role as the keeper of those boxes and the promises that you made to mom about that, and let's just kind of dive into the experience from your perspective.

Pop: 23:38

Well, I don't know how much introduction we need to do, but, as I said in the last podcast earlier to do, but as I said in the last podcast earlier, that mom was very sick I mean very sick, and it was clearly getting ready to pass on under hospice care. And she introduced me to the concept when I went into office at her invitation and she was telling me about her plan, which is, initially it was to give these silver rattles to the firstborn of each of you, three kids Scott, Kellie and Erin. Three of you, and because those rattles were selected several years before by the two of us, long before she was sick, and the two of us selected them together at the same time, with the idea that she would, with me, give these rattles to the firstborn of each of you. And that was kind of the end of that discussion, until she brought up the fact that she was putting them in these boxes, that she realized that she wasn't going to be around for the three rattles to be given to the firstborn, because at that time, well, two of you were married that would be Scott and Kellie but there wasn't an actual child in the picture. In fact, when we got the rattles.

Pop: 24:53

It was several years before that, so when she called me in there, she was doing this and her plan was to put them in a box, wrap them in similar writing, put inside a note which would be from her, because she was planning on these boxes being given to the firstborn. So she figured she wasn't going to be there, which she wasn't, so she would have a note in there about the rattles and would say something like your dad and I got these rattles a long time ago and we were thinking about what we were going to do with them and everything else. But she was now going to put them in a box and wrap them, and then she had extended that she wanted to give something of hers to each of you girls. But there would be several items that were meaningful to her and also related to me, that would be given at notable highlights of your lives, and her plan was to wrap each of these items in a separate box with an individual handwritten note by her, and that the boxes would be numbered, wrapped in the same paper and be distributed when those events occurred which she assumed she wasn't going to be available for and she made a list. I can't remember at this time whether it was handwritten or was typed.

Pop: 26:09

I know that the notes she was going to put in the box were handwritten. I actually saw several of the notes, but the numbers on the boxes would be on this list that I had, which was the number of the box, what was in the box and when it was to be given, asked me if I would do that for her, which I said I surely would. I promised her and then, when the boxes were all finished and everything else, then she gave me those in the list and, to be honest with you, I don't know where I put the boxes, but I do remember I put the list with my important personal papers and I think she told me at the time although it was my impression and I know it happened because I acted on it and that was. It was all a secret Nobody would know about any of it at that time until the boxes would appear at the appropriate time. So what that meant was and I didn't really think about it at the time but was it okay? I've got to put these boxes somewhere where, as my life goes on, the boxes would follow me around. It would be in a relatively secure area from the point of view of getting lost, but also from the point of view of being discovered, and separate to the boxes was this list, and the list was clearly what it was, and so I wanted to keep the list had to be separate because I wanted the list available so I could refer to it from time to time. You know like, oh, you know, this is happening, it's coming up, I better better pull this off.

Pop: 27:35

And I just never thought about the years it would pass, or you know where I would be moving or what I would do with the boxes and store them and transport them. And none of these operational parts of the story never really entered my mind, except that I said I'd do it. And so you know, within weeks of that discussion she passed. It was all fresh in my mind at that time because I had my list, I knew where it was, everything's stored, wasn't planning on moving anyplace, I didn't have any idea what the future would bring, except that these events probably would occur. Probably I would be around and I just want to be sure I was available to pull it all off.

Pop: 28:19

I never thought about the difficulties, the surprises, the timing of anything other than when it would occur or where I would be when that occurred. For example, I might not be I mean, I may be living in Germany and the event would occur in, you know, Tennessee or something. But I said, you know, I figured I'd work and I promised her I would do it. But the difficulty of it, even the emotions of it, didn't really impact me at that time because I didn't think of the emotions of what might occur when I do it or when I couldn't, you know I just I said I'll pull it off and I didn't think of it at the time. But as I've looked back over the years and reflected on it, it didn't consciously hit me as I was the logical person to do it for her. It didn't hit me that, you know, I didn't think of it that way. It was just like you know, she was asking me and it didn't think about she must've had enough feeling personal about who I was, what I would do, when I promised that she was at peace, believing completely without any doubt at all that if I said I would do it, it would happen. So as time has gone on, I've reflected on that and never during the whole program did I feel put upon. I didn't feel like I wish I hadn't promised to do this. I never thought that I wished she wouldn't have asked me.

Pop: 29:50

I had thought from time to time during it I don't know if I can pull this off because for various reasons as we might tell in the story sometimes I wasn't sure where the boxes were. You know, have I lost one? Or that I had misplaced the list of the timing of things and all that sort of thing? So you know, the only time that I really got upset about it wasn't the fact that it had been put upon me to have to do it, it was the fact that I wanted to do it. But I would feel very panicked because I couldn't find them or I didn't know where the list was. It was pretty routine for me to look over the list because I always kept the list somewhere where I would be looking at papers and say, oh yeah, this is coming up, you know.

Pop: 30:34

But you know, sometimes it'd become a little bit unclear to me where all these things were and in those times I sometimes would get a little panicked, not so much because I wish I wasn't asked to do this. It was like I've screwed up and I couldn't honor my commitment. You know, it's more that I screwed up rather than oh, this is such a pain in the butt, you know Right, although there are people that thought that for her to ask that and of me to do it was probably unfair. I mean, I've heard that over the years, not a big deal, but my answer to that would be, "never entered my mind, never. Ever.

Pop: 31:10

Looking back on it, think more from the opposite side of what she felt, not what I felt, and I felt like, oh yeah, I'm going to do this, I want to do it for you, I want to do it for the kids and to me, if there was any difficulty, it was labor of love. That's all it was and it's what I said I would do, you know, and I was happy to do it because of the labor of love. So, anyway, at that moment then everything kind of goes all back to her passing on as comfortably as she could. The only thing that was different about all the bosses except the rattles was that the rattles, from the very beginning, were considered to be a gift to the three of you and the concept of getting the rattles was going to be okay. We'll give these rattles to the first ones and we bought them and got them long before any of this other stuff happened, whereas the subsequent gifts were more directed to her wanting to pass a personal thing of hers to the two girls. Because, you know, at this day I can honestly say I can't remember all of what they were, but I think that most of them were not all of them, I think but most of them were a gift which I had actually given to her that she was then going to pass on.

Pop: 32:25

So, as the years went on, then the first box and I don't know this as we sit here and we visit, but I always myself personally never let anybody know about the boxes until, as time passed, when I married, katie knew that, knew about the boxes because I told her, and the reason I told her was because when she and I got married and we started traveling and we started doing some pretty exotic travel on boats for months, traveling around in trailers, I mean we had a lot of fun as a new couple over the years moving up here and everything else, and moves were a time I wasn't sure where some of these things were and Katie was sort of my backup steward. She knew where these things were at some point. In fact, at one point she said, kind of reminded me that she knew about this and she was instrumental in not keeping me on track because I always wanted to do it, but to kind of bail me out when I thought I misplaced them.

Kellie: 33:29

Co-captain,

Pop: 33:30

Yeah, but the key to the boxe s... I think, counting the rattles. How many were there?

Erin: 33:39

I think nine.

Pop: 33:39

Nine. So I think the first. I can't remember exactly when the first one was, but it's either got to be... I'm thinking Erin's high school graduation? Because Scott's firstborn and Kellie's firstborn were within months of each other. Reese was the first, so Reese would have been my first grandchild, followed closely by Finn, who was the second grandchild. So the two of the rattles would have gone fairly quickly within a year or two, but Erin was the first one. Your high school graduation it was?

Erin: 34:15

Yep.

Pop: 34:16

And does that precede the...

The Sisters: 34:18

Yeah, because mom died in September of '94. And the first box came in May of '95, May or June of '95, which was my high school graduation. And that was when I received the set of pearls, so it was a pearl necklace, bracelet and earrings.

Pop: 34:39

And I remember that I gave those to you down at Fountain Valley right at your graduation, wasn't it? But you didn't know anything about it and you were fairly young then, and you certainly didn't know about the other boxes. You just got a box for your graduation, right?

Erin: 34:54

Yes.

Pop: 34:55

And it was the pearls. And then I remember, as the years went on, doing all the various boxes and they were always emotional and I think, even though you, erin, got the first box when the other boxes came out, there were several boxes along the way and it really wasn't because of the last box, I think, when the first box came and you didn't know there were going to be more boxes for anybody, and even though Kellie got a box or two and Scott got his rattle, because you all got these things individually, you didn't necessarily know that someone else got a box exactly like it as far as the wrapping and the personal note, and but they got some of the more emotional ones that I remember. I think the one that was most, at least from my point of view, the one that was most surprised emotionally and they were all very emotional, don't get me wrong but the one that was most surprised is the one who really had forgotten that these boxes were coming along the way, because Scott got a rattle and then you got some when you graduated from high school, but then there was a gap before you got anything, but in the meantime Kellie got a box because of this and then Kellie got a box for that right and you may have gotten one, but by the time the last box was going to be given, which was your firstborn, and everybody was emotional when they got the boxes, obviously because it had a handwritten note from the mom and what the box was and everything else. But what struck me was that you had no idea I don't think you were even involved with Scott getting a rattle and that Kellie got a rattle. And then there were these other boxes for other things, like your graduations and stuff like that.

Pop: 36:43

But then when you had Weston, you weren't thinking that you're going to be getting a rattle or a gift. Had Weston, you weren't thinking that you're going to be getting a rattle or a gift. You know, because by the time everybody else was getting gifts, they were old enough to have kind of understand that this is a momentous time. And so the surprise was here was another one of these boxes, because they remembered getting boxed for another period of time. But I just think that when that last one came with you, that when the box was presented to you, it was like kind of, oh, I'd forgotten about all this, and all of a sudden it's like, wow, you know, I don't know Individually. Like Kellie, when you got a box every time, was it always a surprise to you when you got one.

Kellie: 37:24

Well, yes and no, because if we look at the calendar of the delivery of the boxes, so mom died in September of 1994. The first box was Erin's high school graduation in May of 1995.

Pop: 37:42

And neither one of you was there, you or Scott?

Erin: 37:45

They were there.

Kellie: 37:45

No, we were there.

Erin: 37:47

They were both there...

Pop: 37:48

Yep, okay, I didn't know they were both there. Did you see it opened?

Kellie: 37:50

Yep

Pop: 37:50

Okay, I didn't recall that.

Kellie: 37:51

Okay, yep, we were all there. And then in July and August of that summer I received my first wedding anniversary box, which was that beautiful linked gold necklace and earrings that you and Mom had made through the years. And Scott got his first wedding anniversary box, and I'm not sure what was in that box. And then, right after or right before that, Erin got her second box, which was her 18th birthday. And then there was a pause in the boxes until the first two rattles in January and April of 1997, which were Reis and Fin, and then there was a pause to Erin's college graduation in May of 2000, a two-year pause to her wedding, which was 2002, and then the final box in 2004. So what's interesting is that mom died in 1994, and the last box was delivered exactly 10 years later. Yeah, you were the keeper of that for over a decade.

Pop: 39:07

Yeah, and during that period of time we were moving all over the place and I can remember one was the logistics of me giving the box at the appropriate time. I didn't want to mail the boxes. There wasn't any concept of mailing boxes or having a surrogate give the boxes. I was going to give the boxes personally, which we did, but sometimes I had to travel under some kind of a rose to get there. You know, for one thing or another. Most of them were pretty close by, but it was just the logistics of me physically being there and I wanted to do it at the event. It wasn't like I really didn't want to a month or two after the graduation or the month or two after the event, you know, present the box. And I remember I was always kind of nervous. I forget how the numbers were on the boxes, but I was always afraid that the number would fall off the boxes and I couldn't realize which box was which?

Pop: 40:00

Because that's the way they numbered which matched my list and at one point I couldn't find the list and at one point Katie says that I was almost frantic at one point because I couldn't find the box or the list sort it all out. But we pulled it off. And of course the last box that I gave, because it was all over a decade, was the most recent one to my memory as I sit here right now. You know the first box or two is like another 10 years back in my memory as I sit here right now. You know the first box or two is like another 10 years back in my memory as I sit now. But I remember it was always incredibly emotional to me as I gave the boxes, you know, and I always felt like each time I gave the box it was like you three, especially the two girls that they really weren't expecting the box.

Pop: 40:52

The box appears, and as soon as they saw the wrapping paper, t hey didn't know what it was, but they knew the concept. But each time it was a surprise, even though they knew that these things had appeared before. And you know, like for your graduation one, a graduation here, and then pretty soon somebody else comes up their graduation and here comes a box. It's like, well, let's see, Erin got a box or Kellie got a box at this certain time. So here's my certain time that you know I may be getting a box or you'd forgotten that you were going to get a box, but when you saw the box you said, oh there, it is Right. So there was a part of, even subconsciously, you were expecting it, or that as soon as you saw it, you knew what it was. You know, I mean not what it was, but it was the idea. And then, of course, when you open the boxes, the profound thing to me was always this handwritten note; yeah, you know not so much what it was, you know the pearls or the watch or whatever it was, as it was this handwritten note. And I think that that, for me, what it was in each one of them, the actual item would mean something to you and it was from your mother.

Pop: 42:05

But for me, the boxes that were the rattles were profoundly emotional, because I was there with your mom when we got the rattles and why we got the rattles, and that the rattles were going to be from both of us. And so I give you a box which is really your mother's legacy to you girls. But every time the rattle appeared, this was in the group of boxes, but it was the one box that I knew exactly what was in that box, because I'd actually laid hands on that. I was involved in the original concept of let's give this rattle, and each of the three rattles were different. Right, right, we're going to give these specifically because we both felt originally that Marsha and I were both going to give this box, these rattles together.

Pop: 43:02

You know, all, all the other stuff was her having me give the boxes, like it was kind of her gift to you and I was the conduit, as it were. And so I think that's why there was a little different, a different impact of the emotions on me to when the last gift, which was a rattle, was going, and it was not only the last gift, it was, it was the completeness of my, of my love message in my own personal. You know, I actually pulled this off, you know.

Pop: 44:12

To me that whole concept of the boxes, from the day I first walked in and saw her doing it. We visited and talked about it a long time. Actually it was a very emotional talk because again, she was dying. But I'm kind of not the kind of guy that if I would sit there and watch your mom wrap a wrapper and do a gift, but every single box when I handed it to you it was always the same wrapping paper. I mean it was the same paper and you know that kind of sounds corny, but each time I'd give the box it was reliving this whole experience, you know.

The Sisters: 44:47

Yeah.

Pop: 44:48

Each time and when the last rattle went, it was reliving this whole experience. You know, each time and when the last rattle went to, and I think the scenario of how I did it was symbolic to me because I really felt in my mind's eye that it was more of a surprise to Erin than any of the boxes had been all along the way, you know. But I was invested in that particular box because it was the rattle which was also for me, right. Yeah, the whole process was this labor of love.

Erin: 45:17

Although I'm sure I can imagine and you can certainly expand on this if you want to but I imagine that there was for as much as you were honored to do that task and it was a labor of love and you were excited to see it through. I can imagine that there was also an element of relief

Pop: 45:37

Oh yeah, no question.

Erin: 45:38

When you did give that final box, to know that my work here is done, I did what I was tasked with doing and she would be so proud and you completed it. But I'm sure there was an element, like you said, with the moves and travel and all of that, that I can only imagine how stressful it was to be in charge of that.

Pop: 46:05

Well, you know, there's no question. I mean each time just the concept of where they were hidden and what was going to be happening. Sure, I get the timing right, it was that way. But you know, I I was visiting this at one point very recently with with Kellie I think maybe it was just somebody else, but they were talking about how difficult the concept of this burden of going through this thing, versus sort of like, when I gave the last one and I said it wasn't so much that it was the last one, so I've completed this bargain it was that the whole bargain, the whole concept from the day one with the boxes was when the last one was given. It was not a relief that, okay, I'm done, I've done it, as much as the concept of completing this wish that she had was not just relief that it was over, it was the emotions of Marshall. We pulled this off. We have this memory bank in this story and that's the completion of it.

Pop: 47:08

And what I use as analogy it's probably not a good analogy, but I'll have the best I can come up with right now is that if a woman gets pregnant, it's like I'm taking on this commitment to end up with this package, this journey, and going along through the pregnancy and everything else and the labor is difficult.

Pop: 47:29

It can be emotionally painful, it can be physically painful, whatever it is. You go along through the whole thing but then, all of a sudden, well, it's over. From the point of view of all the concerns and worries and all that goes along with it it's over and it's like, look what we have, we've got this promise of being a parent fulfilled, whereas for me it's not a good analogy, but in my mind it's like, oh man, it was tough at times. It was really tough at times and I did have this commitment to this process, and now the process is finished and it's not so much the relief that it's over, it's the relief of it's accomplished, it's over, it's the relief of it's accomplished. You know, and I did it, yeah, for her. Therefore, her project and my project were the same and we pulled it off because she started it out by saying this is what I want to do and I cannot do it without you yeah, right you know it's so beautiful.

Erin: 48:30

The other thing that I want to just touch on, because you mentioned it, is that level of surprise, and I think that I was present for Scott and Kellie to graduate from high school and college and get married and all of the things, and so there was never any kind of spirit of expectation and I think that the importance in that lies in the fact that each box, each box, was given at a very unique milestone moment. The only life event where there was a duplicate box was for the birth of our firstborn. That was the only life event that all three of us experienced that a box was given. Outside of that, you know, there was one box given for a high school graduation. It just happened to be mine. There was only one box given for an 18th birthday. That was mine.

Erin: 49:39

Because of that, because each milestone was unique, that every box came as a surprise, because nobody ever would have expected that. And so, even though I knew that Reese had received a rattle and knew that Finn had received a rattle, it never dawned on me that my firstborn would also receive a rattle. That was not because, again, those rattles came in 1997. You know, I was 20 years old, so like that, just you know. So for me, in my mind's eye, like the gift of the rattle at Weston's birth, did come as such a surprise. And so I think back on all of the boxes that were given to me that I was present for and that element of surprise is actually one of my favorite parts of each gift that was given was not expecting anything and then all of a sudden you pop present this classic box because, as you said, they were all wrapped in the same wrapping with these handwritten notes, and they've always been a treasure. They were a treasure then, but certainly still deeply treasured now. You know, I have all of those notes, I have the boxes, I even have the wrapping paper that I've folded and tucked away.

Erin: 51:15

And it wasn't until we really embarked on this journey that I've realized how deeply unique that experience was.

Erin: 51:28

That we were all given both as recipients of the boxes and as you Pop being tasked to be the keeper of the boxes.

Erin: 51:37

That, what mom did, these final acts of love and being very intentional, is an extraordinary gift.

Kellie: 51:49

One of the things that I love so much about what she did, in addition to the element of surprise, was the individuality of each gift, including the three rattles that were all different from one another, that the two of you chose and selected together at a place that was very precious and dear and near to our family, but also how mom tapped into her lifetime of innovation and ingenuity and creativity and uniqueness because those are all elements of who she was as a human being to deliberately create and design this legacy that would allow her to not be the picture in the bottom of a drawer but to be an active and engaged part of all of our lives, moving forward into the future, and that she would be able to leave this token of love and connection and appreciation to our at least firstborn children that I know unequivocally, all of them carry in their hearts to this day.

Kellie: 53:05

They feel her energy and her presence through us, but also through these treasured gifts that they know about, you know, that are part of now... their family legacy. It's really beautiful and it doesn't surprise me at all that Chris recognized the magnitude of the story and felt so strongly about if we were willing to allow this story to be told publicly for the first time, because it's always been this sacred, cherished story within our own family, you know, and the few other people who knew about it.

Pop: 53:45

The other thing too, as you're talking, is that and I'm only saying this is that as I look back on it, I become emotional, which I didn't think about, the totality of it, in the sense that just the boxes and what was in the boxes, and that they were surprises and secret and all that and they were given. And this is just me and how I feel, how I feel so involved in it, is that it could have been the fact that here are the boxes, here's the list. You could, and these things are to be given at these milestone times as a surprise, whatever, but it was my impression from her that they weren't just to be given, but they were to be given by me. Because you could tell this story and it would be very impactful, I think. No matter how you want to look at it, maybe it's not, but you could tell the story of her with the boxes, with the wrapping, with the paper, with everything else, asking me as an individual because she knew I'd pull it off of saying, ok, be sure they get these gifts at these appropriate times. But the emphasis was, not be sure they get the gifts, which I would promise would happen, but is YOU give the gifts. In other words, it would have been very rewarding emotionally to each of you if you would have gotten the gift by a trusted friend of the family and say this is from your mother and your mother instructed you get this gift at your birthday, but that every one of them was based on you. You not only promised me that these gifts get to each of these girls at these times, but YOU give them to them, and I think that was really meaningful to me, that that's what she wanted it to go from me to you, rather than the gift, which is wonderful. You receive it from her, but you receive it not from her through somebody else, from her through me.

Pop: 55:42

Yes, that's the way I've always felt about it and that's why it was so. I never gave thought to the fact that, well, now, let's see, I gotta go time and get over here to get there for that event and I gotta you know which, which was sometimes difficult. But I never thought of it from the sense well, let's see, you know a really trusted friend, let's see lives there. Why don't I just ship it to them and say, be sure to get this. You know, that's a big difference from just saying be sure the girls get these or the kids do, just saying be sure the girls get these or the kids do. So the different moments that I remember. Clearly I can remember giving and several of the places when I gave the gifts. Other people were there when I did it. I'm not saying this happened in all of them, but there were other people there.

The Sisters: 56:29

Yeah.

Pop: 56:30

Like, for example, your wedding. There were other people in the room. You were there, I think, weren't you? I was, and I remember one of them was by the pool. Was it your graduation from high school? Whatever, it was when we were at the pool out at.

The Sisters: 56:43

That one was my 18th birthday.

Pop: 56:45

Was it.

Erin: 56:46

Yeah, at Kellie's.

Pop: 56:47

By the pool. And there were other people there but I don't remember all of them enough to kind of really say this as the understanding. But that last rattle there wasn't anybody there but you and I, you know, because nobody else could get in there, because it was the NICU.

Kellie: 57:03

The day you pulled your doctor card?

Erin: 57:06

He did to get into the NICU.

Pop: 57:08

I did.

Pop: 57:09

Actually they didn't want to let me in. Of course, the whole reason that I went in was not so much to say, well, my daughter just had the baby, and all that kind of stuff. My whole concept was that I was going to be there and give that box, but all of them were emotional as much as the emotions of each of you receiving it, in the memories, in the card, in the boxes. They were emotional from the point of view of, as I look back on it, maybe a bit of exaggeration, I don't know, but in my mind, looking back on it, I actually felt like I can say this and it sounds weird. I guess you know after the fact, but as though it was actually Marsha handing me the box... That sounds weird.

Pop: 57:51

I don't know, I'm not some kind of a mystery writer, but I look back on it. I never felt like it wasn't sort of me doing this and I never said to you this is from your mom. I don't think I ever said that. I just bring the box out and handed you the box. I don't know. That's in my mind.

Kellie: 58:11

I don't remember the exact words, but I know with certainty that every time the box showed up, we knew exactly who it was coming through and who it was coming from, without words even really needing to be said, and I think that that was one of the most beautiful aspects of the experience.

Kellie: 58:38

It was very spiritual, very energetic. Her presence was always overwhelming and it was something that the two of you were always doing together, from the beginning of when she shared the concept of the boxes with you, your agreement to embark on this journey with her even after she was gone. And then, speaking to what we've already talked about in depth of who you are as a human being, because of your loyalty and commitment and trust and care and compassion and love, I have no doubt in my mind that she had no doubt in her mind exactly who she could trust to carry out this very, very important project. Because of all the projects in her life in 47 years and she had a lot of them, especially with leading the radio station and forming the statewide network and her work with NPR and all the things that she did, all the projects she was involved it was the very last thing that she chose to do in her living. That's really beautiful.

Pop: 1:00:02

I think you mentioned earlier about when the box appeared and I was talking about, you know, I think I remember saying that this is a box from your mom or whatever. Think I ever remember saying that this is box from your mom or whatever? I don't think I really said much of anything that the box came out and it became apparent that where this box came from, you know, it wasn't sort of like somebody had to say, oh, this is a gift from your mom or, on her behalf, I want you to get this. I don't think that was ever needed to be said. As soon as you saw the wrappers, you knew what it meant.

Pop: 1:00:32

I think that's what you were saying earlier too. Yeah, yeah. So I was trying to think of I haven't seen the wrapping for years, but I recall that it was. It was kind of I don't know if they had flowers or it was just designs, but it was kind of a apricotty, pinkish wrapping, wasn't it? Kind of a floral look to it, but I don't know if there were flowers had pigs on it, oh, did it.

The Sisters: 1:00:56

Okay, now yeah.

Kellie: 1:00:58

Of course it did.

Pop: 1:01:00

I didn't remember that, but yes.

Erin: 1:01:03

I have a picture of it.

Pop: 1:01:06

Yep, I would love to see that and I had. I don't to this day. I mean, honestly, I can say I suspect when she and I were sitting there talking about it, she didn't talk to me about the wrapping paper, except that I knew she wrapped them all in the same and I'd seen the boxes from time to time, but I don't ever remember there being pigs on it. I thought it was more like flowers. Maybe I just just forgot, you know.

Erin: 1:01:27

No, but you were right. It's that apricotty pink color. It'll be fun for you to see it. I have pictures.

Pop: 1:01:38

And I don't remember... my mind's eye doesn't remember there being like wrapping ribbons or anything. It was just a box. Was there a ribbon?

Erin: 1:01:49

No, no ribbons, Just the box, and then the little notes.

Pop: 1:01:53

And the item.

Erin: 1:01:54

And the item.

Kellie: 1:01:56

She loved her bows and I think she wanted to avoid the bows so they didn't get all smashed. That's probably true. Boxes just with wrapping could be stacked, but boxes with ribbons had to be, you know, bubble wrapped Pop. I have a question for you, because this story of the boxes has always been so sacred to our family, it's always been so near and dear to our hearts and it has been shared, you know, with friends and family over the years and it's always been very well received, and people often end up in tears when they hear this story because it is so deeply touching. It's such an incredible act of love and generosity and, again, just very intentional, and the fact that she even had the forethought to do this in the face of her own death is extraordinary.

Erin: 1:02:59

But then something really extraordinary happened last summer when Chris Howard heard this story and, as a film and television producer, to have these thoughts that Kellie referenced, referenced earlier of this is a story that needs to be told. This is a really inspirational story that needs to be shared, and invited us to embark on this journey with him and to put a story together about mom's life and love and this legacy, and so it's been a really incredible process, as we've unpacked so much in telling this story about the boxes. But I would love to hear from you what your thoughts were when you heard about this project, when Kellie and I told you that we were given this opportunity to work with Chris and to bring this story to the masses. I would love to just hear about how that impacted you, how you felt about that when you first heard about the Boxes Project with Chris.

Pop: 1:04:08

I think when I first heard it it was like, yeah, it makes sense, it could be a good story. I think when I first heard it it was like, yeah, it makes sense, it could be a good story To me, it's so deep-seated, emotional to me as the big picture of my relationship with her, that to me it's such an intimate story. Is how ow could you ever really tell a story like this which so many aspects of the story to me are so ethereal? It's kind of like trying to tell a story of a dream. This is for me, you know, because how do you tell the story of my feelings, of when she talked to me about the concept, because I've told this story to some people. Sometimes it comes out as well, that was real nice of her, but it sounds like she's putting a lot of undue pressure on you. How would I tell a story of well, it wasn't just mechanical, saying yeah, I'll do it, or of her imposing on me? I didn't feel that way. The whole experience to me from the very beginning is it gets kind of ethereal, and so for me to explain that to people I tell the story, it's like how's somebody else going to tell the story? You know what I mean. Oh, yeah, to me, the story to me is yeah, it's a great story and everything else, but how are you going to tell the story? A little bit of how I feel about the fact that, how are you going to tell a story of a wisp, of a cloud kind of thing.

Pop: 1:05:33

I don't know if you understand what I'm saying, it's just to me. It's like I mean, how can that story be told without being schmaltzy or being, you know, too concrete, when it's nothing from my point of view, that I can kind of put my hands on any of this stuff? You know, you follow me. Yeah, I'm sure it's hard to follow, but so that's kind of what I thought about early on, and then I got to think about a bit more.

Pop: 1:05:49

Well, I guess you just have to get the right person telling the story, the writer or however it's done. You know that kind of thing. But I can tell you that people that I've told it to, especially when I've been able to tell the story, some good friends of mine that, hey, you know they're thinking about probably putting this together in some kind of a book or a documentary or a play or a movie or whatever. You know it sounds documentary or play or a movie or whatever. It sounds really cool actually, but how in the world are they going to pull that off? The way I feel about it right.

Kellie: 1:06:18

I think, if we're all realistic, we all think that about the stories that we're living at the time that we're living them, because it's just our reality, it's part of what we do. I'll give you an example. Just last night, completely coincidentally, because it popped up on the movie screen, Netflix, Marcus and I turned on Instant Family - very appropriate given the conversation that we're having today. The Mark Wahlberg movie. It's about he and his wife, and they choose to adopt three foster children siblings. Cute story, and it's based on a true story, and our favorite shows to watch are shows that are based on real life experiences, real journeys that people take through life, the emotions they feel, the things that happen in the telling of that story, the lessons that are learned, the connections that are made and the outcomes that are achieved, the growth that comes with them. And so I have no idea what this will be or not be.

Kellie: 1:07:27

All I know right now is that we lived an extraordinary gift of an experience, which was the delivery of the gift of the boxes, thanks to mom and thanks to you, and it has inspired new connections to incredible people that we didn't know before, people who have really been astounded by what they've heard through the telling of the story, and it's led Erin and I here to the greatest connection and relationship that I think we have ever shared as sisters, and to the telling of other people's stories of life, love, loss and legacy and what that means to them and how they live that out on a daily basis, the journeys and experiences they've gone through, and so to see all of that come full circle.

Kellie: 1:08:25

No matter what the boxes eventually may or may not be, they meant something to all of us and in the end, that's what truly matters.

Erin: 1:08:36

I couldn't agree with you more and we've said it before and I will say it again today and we will keep saying it is that even with all of the gifts, of the boxes, the greatest gift that she gave either of us is each other, and as part of that, she also gave us the gift of pop and pop. You just continue to give us the gift of yourself, and you were the keeper of these boxes and you did carry out an extraordinary task. But if I could wrap you up into the same little box with the same wrapping paper, I would unwrap it over and over and over because you are such a gift. Thank you for being our dad.

Pop: 1:09:30

Well, thank you very much. A little on the lighter side about the same thing is it'd really be hard to keep me in a box.

The Sisters: 1:09:38

Oh, we know it would be hard to keep you in a box.

Kellie: 1:09:44

Well, as we come to a close today on this extraordinary conversation, this in and of itself has been an absolute treasure and a gift, and it's impossible to take conversations like this and put them in a box with a pretty little bow on top of them. But you mean the world, not just to the three of us, to the seven of us adult children, the eight, the pieces of eight that we all are. Because I know Lori continues to be grateful for you as her father every single day and we continue to thank her for her sacrifice in opening and paving a way for us to have the experience of being your daughters as well. But all the grandchildren and all the great grandchildren we celebrate, honor and look up to you and look at you with extraordinary gratitude every single day. So thank you for being the keeper of the boxes, but thank you too for being the most extraordinary father, the most extraordinary girl dad any girls could ever have. But we're all very lucky and we're all very grateful. And I also wanted to read mom's memorial card in full, because we talked about this earlier. Life is eternal and love is immortal and death is only a horizon and love is immortal and death is only a horizon and our horizon is nothing save the limit of our sight. That's a more meaningful connection to our own.

The Sisters: 1:11:50

We hope today's conversation offered you insight, encouragement or even just a moment to pause and reflect on the story you're living and the legacy you're creating. If something in this episode moved you, please consider sharing it with someone you love. A small share can make a big impact. You can also join us on Instagram, facebook or LinkedIn and connect further at thepigpodcastcom. And if you're enjoying this podcast, one of the most meaningful ways you can support us is by leaving a five-star rating, writing a short review or simply letting us know your thoughts. Your feedback helps us reach others and reminds us why we do this work, because The P-I-G isn't just a podcast. It's a place to remember that, even in the midst of grief, life goes on, resilience matters and love never leaves. Thanks for being on this journey with us. Until next time, hogs and kisses everyone!