PJs and Pokey: Rest, Reflections, & Nature's Wisdom

In this PJs & Pokey episode, Kellie and Erin cozy up in their pajamas with “pokey” (their mom’s name for popcorn) to reflect on recent powerful conversations and the summer adventures that recharged their hearts.

Kellie’s 28-day road trip included 11 days completely off-grid in the wilderness—just a tent by a river, morning coffee, and conversations that matter. Erin’s Montana travels brought the awe of Glacier National Park and reconnections with places from her boyfriend Jason’s childhood.

Along the way, they revisit lessons from recent guests: Katie’s intentional journey as a bonus mom, Pop’s decades of unconditional love, Marcus’s vulnerable story of grief and resilience, and Dr. Matthew Arau’s simple but powerful reminder to turn your “have tos” into “G.E.T. tos.”

This is more than a recap—it’s a heartfelt reminder that rest, reflection, and nature’s wisdom can heal in ways words cannot.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to PJs & Pokey
• 4:52 Kellie’s Summer Adventures & Reset
• 13:02 Katie: Bonus Motherhood with Grace
• 31:47 Pop: Unconditional Love Through Loss
• 40:15 Erin’s Montana & Glacier National Park Trip
• 50:52 Marcus: Grief, Resilience & Fatherhood
• 1:00:46 11 Days Off-Grid in the Wilderness
• 1:09:11 Music, Gratitude & the "G.ET. To" Mindset
• 1:14:20 Closing Reflections & Invitation to Listeners

Transcript

The Sisters: 0:07

Welcome to The P-I-G, where we explore life, love, loss and legacy through real conversations and meaningful stories, with purpose, intention and gratitude. We're your hosts. I'm Kellie... and I'm Erin. We're sisters, best friends, sometimes polar opposites, but always deeply connected by the life and love of an incredible woman, our mother, Marsha.

The Sisters: 0:28

Today we're cozied up in our PJs and munching on pokey - what our mom called popcorn - for an episode that's sure to be real, raw, and maybe even a little ridiculous a s we hit pause to reflect on the powerful episodes we've released recently. From Katie's grace-filled bonus mom journey to Pop's deeply emotional legacy as a father and a grandfather. From Marcus's healing path through grief and fatherhood to Dr Matthew Arau's inspiring message of living with gratitude, enthusiasm and trust. To my own solo episode where I shared some of my deepest reflections as a motherless daughter and what it's meant to grow through 30 years of loss. But we're also catching you up on summer adventures, why we both needed a little time off grid and how taking time to reconnect with nature helps us reconnect with ourselves. Because healing doesn't just happen through words. It happens in stillness, in sunlight in space, and this episode is your gentle reminder to slow down, take a breath and maybe even take a step outside.

Erin: 1:40

It is so good to be back recording with you again. And I am really looking forward to reflecting on some of our recent episodes. There's been a lot and we could spend hours and hours recapping, but I'm really excited to just take a glance through some recent conversations that we've had and to reflect on those, and I'm really looking forward to jumping into the importance of hitting the reset button as you and I have both taken the time that we needed (it's never enough time!) to unplug from work and family life and the busyness of our day-to-day and just reconnect with ourselves, with our partners and each other, and to really embrace what happens when we do that. You know, there's so much that happens - not only in the stillness - but for you and I both, I know we love to be on the open road with snacks in the car. S o, I'm really looking forward to recapping some of our summer adventures and to hopefully inspire our listeners to do the same - to just disconnect from their worlds a little bit and to hit that reset button and to really rejuvenate themselves.

Kellie: 3:24

Yeah, I think taking time off and taking time away for the vast majority of people, erin, is so foreign. It's become such a foreign concept and it's something that hopefully we can, through our conversations, continue to bring back to the forefront and maybe even provide and have some conversation around strategies and ways that people can do that in their day-to-day lives, because I think that that's part of what we lose sight of. Is that connecting to nature, just getting outside, starting your day with some sunlight and some fresh air, and taking time away from your computer, your desk, your screen, your scrolling, to just reconnect with nature a little bit and we'll talk about this a little bit when we get to the Matthew episode. But music really is nature and nature really is music and it's such a beautiful place for healing and for inspiration and for hope and just when life gets emotionally overwhelming, which is a lot of what we talk about on this podcast. But for us, for me, spending time in nature is life, love, loss and legacy all combined into one beautiful moment. So I am really looking forward to that today too. I think it's going to be a really fun conversation in PJ's over Pokey.

Erin: 4:47

Yes, well, do you want to dive in first and talk a little bit about your summer adventures?

Kellie: 4:54

Sure, in fact, this will be kind of fun. I'm wondering if we just combine our reflection on the episodes as part of our disconnecting, instead of splitting it up into two separate parts, because Marcus and I left town for 28 days this summer. S o we pulled out of our home, our driveway in Western Colorado, and hit the road for 28 days for five states, 3,500 miles, and what's really cool about our summer vacation - and we've done this every year for 15 years - is we purposefully plan and prepare for this trip each summer, year round. And so we hit the road and we have our snacks and our goodies and we have our Pandora and Spotify playlists. We've got our music, but we also have our podcasts. And one of the things that we did is we went back and listened to, re-listened to, all of the episodes that had come out recently, because obviously you and I have listened to all of them many times over producing them, but Marcus hadn't heard a few of them, and so that was actually a really fun way for us to spend some of our time on the road, and so we had a lot of conversations about these particular episodes and so I'm going to go ahead and start there. I love it.

Kellie: 6:22

The first episode that we wanted to recap today was the episode with Katie. I think what was so fun for me in that episode, and as we talk about Katie's episode and Pop's two episodes is Pop and Katie actually came down to visit us in Bend, Oregon, while we were up there. We were there. We took about five days on our road trip up. We went to Ely Nevada. Our first night Stayed in the KOA cabin, which was great. Had an incredible cup of coffee. Of all places in Ely Nevada, we had an amazing cup of coffee that morning at a little place called... what was that place called... Beans and Brews. And I looked it up online because, you know me, that's what I do. and they're based out of Salt Lake City and just kind of a new baby franchise. But man, they roasted some incredible coffee, which is always great for us on the road.

Kellie: 7:16

And then we went to Susanville, California, where you actually lived for a little bit of time. Yeah, had a great time there, exploring a couple of fun little restaurants. Went up to Eagle Lake, which I know is a place that you have taken the boys trout fishing. Yes, that place has changed a lot. Then we boogied up to Ashland, Oregon. We wanted to check it out because when we're on the road we're always looking for where might we want to live someday or where might we want to be by the water. Do we want to keep going back to the same vacation places every year? Do we want to do something a little bit different? Spent a couple days there, visited a friend we haven't seen in a long, long time, checked it out. Don't want to live there, but it was a cute little place. They have this big Shakespeare festival that they're known for internationally and Dr Matthew Arau has actually led music events there. So that was kind of fun. That's cool. Then we boogied over to Bend, Oregon. We spent 11 days there and Pop and Katie came down to visit us, and so it's fun to be reflecting on their episodes because of the time that we actually got to spend with them this summer and their reflections back to us about the episodes that they got to be a part of and how much fun that was for them and how much they enjoyed it and the feedback that they've gotten from their friends and their community and other family members who have listened to the episodes.

Kellie: 8:42

So as I look back on the episode with Katie, Erin, I think the biggest thing for me is how much I actually learned about her through our conversation that I didn't quite know at all, or at least the full details of, as we have shared life with her over the last 30 years, and I think for me that's a reminder that there's always something more for us to learn from the people that are in our lives.

Erin: 9:09

Man, I could not agree with that more and it's so awesome to hear you say that, because I echo that sentiment. And one of the things that really stuck out to me in that conversation was how much it reminded me of all of these conversations that you and I have been having throughout this project with the boxes, with Chris and certainly on the podcast, and how, when we really started talking more and having these conversations, I realized that we were having conversations we've never had before and sharing thoughts and insights and feelings that we had just never had before, hadn't shared with each other before, and I had a lot of those moments in that conversation with Katie where it was for as many conversations as we've had over the decades that she's been in our lives. We'd never had a conversation quite like that and it was really touching.

Kellie: 10:07

It really was. I hope listeners, if they haven't heard her episode or any of the ones we're going to talk about today, that they'll actually go back and take the time to listen. And I think my hope in this conversation that you and I are having now is inspiring people to open up the door of communication and listening to the people in their lives.

Kellie: 10:31

I think we take people for granted for the most part and we live in a very busy world. We have very busy lives. There are so many distractions, but one of the things I know in the deepest parts of my soul and spirit and getting in nature always brings me back to this is that life is really really, really short and our time on this earth, as part of this beautiful planet, is really short lived. It's really just a breath in the big picture and I think that we miss and doing this podcast with you has reminded me of how much I'm actually missing by not taking the time to really slow down and have the purposeful and meaningful conversations with others. And it doesn't mean that it has to be serious and it has to be reflective of specific topics or there's an agenda at play, but it's really just about when's the last time you asked somebody in your life a random question about their life and then just actually took the time to listen and learn and absorb all that information and go, wow, I just look at what I learned about this particular human being that I didn't know before.

Erin: 11:53

Yeah, that's really beautiful, and I want to piggyback on that with a thought about how easy it is for all of us as human beings to make assumptions about people, about situations, and I think that if people do go back and listen to Katie's episode, as you suggested, and really listen to that and are very open-minded about there was so much beauty that came out of that conversation, especially surrounding, for me, the relationship between a stepmom and stepdaughters right, which could obviously spill over into any kind of step parenting but specifically that relationship with us as girls who'd lost their mom and then a new mom stepping into this role in relationship with Pop, and it was so beautiful to hear how intentionally she navigated that role and now, looking back on it, it looked like it was done so easy and was such grace. But I think that you know, I know for myself that I had probably so many thoughts in my mind as an 18, 19 year old. You know Pop and Katie got married right before my 20th birthday. So I was 19 when they got married and I'm sure, even though I can't recall them, I'm sure I had assumptions and thoughts in my head about what was about to take place and what that relationship was going to look like and what it was going to entail, both positive and negative. And some of those things were true and some of them absolutely weren't. And it was just really beautiful all this time later to kind of reflect on those early moments especially, and certainly things could have gone a different direction and looked very different in our lives than what they did and what they do today. So I really hope that it can inspire people, like you said, to just have an open heart and an open mind and to go into those episodes and really listen for any kind of key takeaways that they can apply to their own lives.

Kellie: 14:10

You just said something that just prompted a thought in my head, and that is you and I, both, in the midst of going on vacation, celebrated birthdays.

Erin: 14:22

We did that's fun, yeah.

Kellie: 14:25

So you know, the older sister is 55, magical five, five. I'm just really embracing this year of 55 in a way that I never have in my entire life, so that's a whole nother topic of conversation. But you turned 48 just last week, yeah, and your boys are the exact age now that you were then when Pop and Katie got married.

Kellie: 14:51

And so a couple thoughts. Number one is the conversation and the questions that you can have with your boys, based on what you just told me. You were thinking at that time in your life, or not thinking, or maybe making assumptions about, right. So what a great way for parents to put themselves back in the shoes of their children. And wow, you know, hindsight is 20-20. If I could go back and ask my younger self some questions, what would they be? Why aren't we having those conversations? Ask my younger self some questions, what would they be? Why aren't we having those conversations? Yeah, we need to be having those conversations, yeah, so, and maybe we'll have those conversations on the podcast with the kids, which would be a lot of fun.

Kellie: 15:34

But the other thing that I was thinking about, as you were having your birthday this summer, is that both you and I have outlived our mother.

Erin: 15:40

Yeah, I actually just had this conversation with Jason last night...

Kellie: 15:44

... and Marcus and I have had these conversations and what a celebration it is for her, our mom, that both of her daughters got to outlive her and that could be a really difficult thing for some people even me in my past life and living, I know probably for you to reconcile that reality. At the same time, I think that that really deserves to be celebrated, that she gave us everything that we needed and the people Katie, Pop, Jason, Marcus, our own children, our extended family and friends, our communities but she positioned us for greatness and for longevity and we have learned so much and we continue to learn with every passing day. So, anyhow, that just popped into my head as you were talking about being 19, turning 20 when Pop and Katie got married. Thank you for interjecting those thoughts. That's really beautiful and, yes, I definitely think that we should have more conversations about that, and we have talked many times about inviting our kids to join us in episodes on the podcast and I think that that would be really special and we definitely need to get that scheduled One of the things that was really fun during our time with Pop and Katie in Oregon this summer after the recording and release of their episodes was their reflection on it, and I shared that.

Kellie: 17:14

Marcus and I actually listened to all the episodes again going up, and one of the things that he and I talked about so much on the road. And then he had some really beautiful conversations with both Pop and Katie while we were there about how much he learned about them and their lives through those episodes, through the conversations, and how much he came to understand the dynamic of the relationships with them, between me, between you, between all of us together, and really what an inspiring blended family.

Erin: 17:51

Yes, we really created intentionally from the get-go. Yeah, we did and then what that has looked like and how that has carried over into our own relationships and our own families. You know of being step parents, then, and everything that that entails and means. So there's so many more conversations and reflections to be had on all of that for sure.

Kellie: 18:20

Okay, sorry, I'm just gonna say it right now, because we did say it might be a little bit ridiculous this episode. So we may be here, there and everywhere, but let's just call it what it is: parenting is fucking hard.

Erin: 18:34

It's so hard...

Kellie: 18:35

... and step parenting is really really hard. And being a kid is really hard, and being a step kid is really, really hard, and you and I have been in all of these positions now every single one of them. So we actually get to speak from a place of experience and we get to put our learning and our growing wisdom through maturity into practice. Yeah, that life isn't easy. There are curveballs around every corner. Families look so different. Every family is such a study of human behavior and, as my daughter likes to tease me almost every time she sees me, my favorite line in the whole world is human behavior is so fascinating, but it really is. And you start to put all that together inside of family dynamics and it's really something. And I am just grateful that kind of pulling full circle, the episodes with Katie and pop and everything that we learned about them, everything that we explored during those conversations, the beautiful aspects of you and I, the relationship that we have with Pop as daughters, because he loves being a girl dad but also that we were adopted, we were chosen and we never felt like stepchildren even though we were stepchildren. I know unequivocally he never felt like a stepdad even though he was a stepdad. And in my own life.

Kellie: 20:11

Now, later, as a divorced mom who brought together a blended family, I just thought that that was the way it worked right. It was going to be very seamless and it was going to be very easy and everybody was going to get along. We had to work harder in our second blended family experience, with Katie and four grown children that we all consider siblings, sisters and brothers and all of that. It's not like anything. We were all adults when we came together, yeah, but when we first came together with pop, with mom, it was just seamless.

Erin: 20:49

Yeah, it was super easy.

Kellie: 20:50

We talked about it on the episode that there was just nothing. I mean, Scott and you and I were just siblings from the very get go. We were just siblings, but we all lived in the same home. There wasn't back and forth, there wasn't visitations and all that kind of stuff. There were some crazy family dynamics, but we got through them all and in our own lives it has been different, and I think that those are going to be topics that we will discuss on the podcast, especially as we have experts on who really help people navigate the difficulties and complexities of blended families, because that involves a lot of life a lot of loss, it should always involve love.

Kellie: 21:32

It doesn't always involve a lot of love and legacy and I think if we can help bridge that gap and kind of fill in some of those holes for other people through our own experience, that's a really beautiful gift to bring into the world.

Erin: 21:45

Yeah, I completely agree. I look forward to having all of those conversations Because, yeah, you know, our, our tagline is life, love, loss and legacy, and you know we have spent a lot of time in conversation specifically surrounding loss through death. We had a beautiful conversation with Jenny that included loss of limbs. But I look forward to diving into more real life stuff that we can wrestle through. And between the two of us we have lived a lot of life and between the two of us we have lived a lot of life. I do hope that we can impact listeners and inspire somebody and shed light on certain situations.

Kellie: 22:33

Yeah, I think that that's going to be a lot of fun. I think it's going to add continued dynamics and dimension to the episode, which is really great as well.

Kellie: 23:07

So let's take a little diversion. We've talked a little bit about where we went with our summer vacation to Bend with Pop and Katie. We walked them. Boy, I'll tell you there's one I want to give a little shout out to Bend, Oregon. So we always go to Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. Been there every summer 15 years. That's where we spend our summer vacation. That's where our kids grew up spending their summer vacation, and this year we decided we wanted to do something a little bit different, check out a new place, and so it takes a little bit of time to kind of get your feet right underneath you with a new place and what is it like? And we've only ever driven through there, not really spent a whole lot of time.

Kellie: 24:10

Well, it's a beautiful community. The Deschutes River runs through there. There's tons of water activities, great mountain biking, wonderful places in the mountains and the surrounding area to go explore fabulous restaurants. Really cool place. In fact, we learned while we were there because they have more roundabouts than any town I've probably ever been to in my life. Even though Grand Junction is trying to become the roundabout capital of the world, bend actually won the roundabout of the country or some big award. I'm going to get in trouble. I probably should have researched this before I said it, but anyhow, in 2023, they won some big national roundabout award.

Kellie: 24:51

Now, first of all, I didn't know that was a thing which is kind of funny but kind of cool. But their roundabouts are absolutely beautiful.

Erin: 25:03

I love it.

Kellie: 25:03

They are full of flowers and so there's the nature aspect that gets pulled in lots of beautiful sculptures and statues. But they've done a great job with that community and one of the things that we learned while we were there is how complex and interconnected their trail system is, so there is almost not anywhere you can get that. You can't take a bike or hiking trail to get there. Wow, which is really, really cool. So we walked Pop and Katie, for three days and it was a lot of fun for all of us. But that's such great time to have conversation, to connect together as family and to just share that time. So we really really enjoyed that. So let's move to a little bit about your adventure this summer before we backtrack, to finish out the overview of our episodes and our 11 days in the wilderness off grid.

Erin: 26:07

Oh my gosh, I cannot wait to hear more about that. Yes, we had an incredible trip.

Erin: 26:13

Jason and I went to Montana, which is where he grew up, and I had been to Montana before, but I'd only ever been to the Bozeman area and never seen any other part of the state. So we flew up. We flew into Helena, rented a car and from there we were road warriors, which is what we like to be. But we did decide to fly up so that we could have more time in Montana, and we spent our first couple of nights in a little town about an hour or so south of Helena called Townsend. That's where Jason spent his early years. His cousin Zach and his wife Lacey hosted us. They have a beautiful ranch, so they hosted us for two nights and so it was really fun for me to meet them and for Jason and Zach and Lacey to reconnect. We had a lot of fun. They played tourists with us for a day, and so we got to just walk all around town and see some cool shops and pop into some fun bars and have a good burger, like we just had so much fun. We also got to enjoy a really fun evening at.

Erin: 27:27

Some friends of theirs were having a little small town Montana 4th of July gathering and they had met a musician in Vegas and brought him up to do this kind of little private concert. There was probably 40 or 50 of us there, and so we just had great food, great drinks, incredible music and it was just a really really fun experience. Absolutely gorgeous setting. I think I sent you pictures of that sunset that night. That was just. I mean, they call it big sky country for a reason. It was just stunning and beautiful. So that was great.

Erin: 28:06

And then on the 4th of July, we hit the road to drive west to the Flathead Lake area, which is where Jason kind of spent middle school, high school and beyond, and so got to meet up with a really dear old friend of his and have lunch in Missoula when we were driving through. So that was really cool. And then we were in Jason's old stomping grounds so Big Fork, whitefish, kalispell and we drove through Glacier National Park, which was on my bucket list, a site that I'd always wanted to see. I'd never been to Glacier and most people enter the west side of Glacier National Park and drive up and then turn around actually, and go down the same way, and now they do a timed entry at the west side of Glacier. You have to buy passes and it's all timed entry. Well, that doesn't exist if you go in on the east side, and so we went out of our way and drove a little further so that we could enter the east side and we drove the entire going to the sun road. We drove all the way over then and exited on the west side of Glacier and it was stunning. It was so beautiful.

Erin: 29:22

Jason humored me and stopped every time I was like stop, I want to hike to that waterfall or I want to take a picture here and we saw bighorn sheep and deer. We saw like just some fun wildlife. I did not see a moose and I did not see a bear on this trip, but we saw some fun wildlife and we just had perfect weather and it was gorgeous and I felt like every other turn. I was like, are we in the United States? It just felt otherworldly. It was so stunning and beautiful and, much like you and Marcus, we just have such beautiful conversation. We just love to be in the car, we love the conversation and typically we're talking, but if not we've got great tunes playing and snacks and we just love being on the road. So we had a really incredible trip. It was awesome to meet some of Jason's family and friends and you know we talked a lot about our podcast on that trip as well, and just what we're doing and the conversations that we're having and and it was beautiful, a beautiful time of reflection. Jason's always so encouraging and really talking about what's next and what's coming up, and that was really exciting too. So it was a much needed time away from again just the hustle and bustle of everyday life and we just I didn't even open my computer, I did zero work and, yeah, exactly, I love it and just really was present in the moment on that vacation and I'm so grateful. It was wonderful.

Kellie: 31:07

Well, it sounds amazing.

Kellie: 31:09

Glacier National Park is one of our very, very, very favorite places in all the world. I think if there's one big loss that I hold in my soul and my spirit since COVID, we lost so much during COVID, right, but so many great things also came out of that period of time. But one of the losses that came out of that period of time is the freedom that we had to visit national parks unencumbered. You know, like Zion National Park is in our backyard and we would spend time there almost annually and we could just drive down, get a place to stay, eat at the little cafe, hike all of the hikes without any issue whatsoever. And now we can't go because there's just not the freedom to be able to do that. It's just like what you had to do with the East versus the West entrance. Now, none of that negates the beauty and the breathtaking experience of being there, even with all the yeah. But I think part of what we love is life is so full of people all the time, 24-7, 365, that it's those breaks from everyday reality, from the hustle and bustle from all of the people, even in our own growing communities and Austin especially as the capital of Texas. Yeah, it's nice to get away, so I'm so glad that you had in. The pictures are amazing. We should post some pictures of each of our trips on the website. So we have that.

Erin: 32:45

Oh yeah, we will. That'll be great.

Kellie: 32:47

All right, where do we go from here? Sister, you want to keep going on our episode reflections?

Erin: 32:58

Yes, let's do that. I would like to, because we did spend kind of more time, you know, reflecting on Katie's episode and some of that.

Erin: 33:02

Is there anything in particular that you want to discuss in regards to Pop's episode?

Kellie: 33:10

Boy, you know, here's the bottom line with Pop. You know he's been in our lives now for almost 45 years. You know the vast majority of my life and literally almost all of your life, he's been such a strong presence. He's such a dynamic man. When we literally talk about a person who is, or has the potential to be, an expert in literally everything on the face of the planet which, self-proclaimed he said in the episodes if I'm interested, I'm going all in All, in Everything I possibly can about it until I'm not interested in learning anymore about it. And then he moves on to the next thing, and that may be 5, 8, 10, 45 different things he has going on at one time. So in his own right, he's an amazing human being.

Kellie: 34:05

Again, there were parts of his early child upbringing and his experiences in the military and through medicine that were new or re-familiar through the conversation that we had, but I think what really struck me in the episode was his raw vulnerability and honest conversation, and we talked about this when we were together this summer about the loss of Laurie. And you know, when you're nearly 45 years past the losing of your firstborn daughter at the very tender age of 16, she was just a couple of weeks before her 17th birthday when she was in that car accident and what that does to shift your reality, not just as a parent but as a human being, and, in his case, shifted his role as a father not just to Lori but to Scott, and went from being a husband to being single and trying to maintain some sense of reality. In the midst of all of that, and when he was talking about the difficulties of not being able to be the dad that he wanted to be to Scott and now not being able to be a dad at all to Laurie, and the impediment of his work as a physician, where he couldn't take time off, you couldn't leave the operating room, you couldn't exit yourself from the reality of the situation Because, yes, you just had this loss, but now you're trying to save somebody's life. Yeah, and just how to? How to manage all of that? I just my level of understanding and awareness and respect for how he navigated through all of that and then, within very short order, met mom and opened up his arms completely and fully - big bear hug to you and I - and the rest is history. That was a special part of that conversation for me.

Erin: 36:16

Yeah, that was really incredible for me as well, and I continue to just learn about him and I love that so much that I'm always learning new tidbits and things that I didn't know before, and so that was really incredible for me too.

Erin: 36:28

One of the things that was most profound about that conversation and I think that you know, the ability to be very cognizant and aware of this just comes with age more than anything, life and just all of the things is I have a whole new appreciation and a different perspective on the immense amount of loss that Pop has faced in his life, and that type of loss could really harden somebody. They'd be blameless for that. You could absolutely understand how somebody could experience all of that and just eventually kind of be closed off to the world and to all of that. And pop just seems to have this bottomless love tank I mean you would just never know unless you knew right Like he's just so warm and friendly and inviting and compassionate and makes every person that he's talking to feel like they are absolutely the most important part of his day and he just gives of himself abundantly to the people that he loves especially. I just really have a lot of respect and admiration and that seems to grow by the day. Actually, when I realized that his love knows no bounds. It just seems limitless. And to be on the receiving end of that type of love from another human being is really remarkable.

Kellie: 38:15

It is, it's really the epitome of unconditional love.

Kellie: 38:21

I think that men especially would really benefit from listening to his episodes, not just his journey through life, but also his commitment to becoming the keeper of the boxes at our mom's request and doing it out of a labor of unconditional love. I mean, Marcus and I talked a lot about that, specifically on our drives and all of us together when we were in Oregon this summer, and his reiteration of the fact that that wasn't a big ask. Of course I was going to do that. I mean, that is your final wish and we get to do it together. And I think that really came through beautifully in those episodes as well. Is that and I've never heard him say this before? But when he said I felt like every single time I gave you girls one of those boxes, your mom was handing it to me and I was handing it to you. That was such a beautiful remembrance for him of the passing off of that box from her, almost in the moment the rattles were from the two of them together no-transcript. But he does have that reservoir of love that beats through his chest and it's palpable all the time.

Kellie: 40:05

And you know, as you and I and Scott are aging, the reality is that we're facing the reality that our parents are aging. Scott's mom, Julie, has died. Our mom, Marsha, has died At some point. Unless we all go first, we're going to eventually have to say goodbye to the two of them, and I'm finding, erin, that these conversations are giving me space to prepare for that and, at the same time, prepare for the reality that all of our children are someday going to have to say goodbye to us. And, as we mentioned earlier, we both outlived our mom, which is great, because our children are now nearing or beyond the age we were when we lost a parent, and so that in and of itself is really cool. And that comes back to that how are we living our life to be a legacy while we're still here, which means that we spend the time we have the conversations we engage in the questions, we learn from our children while we still have the ability to do that, and so that time with Pop and Katie was very special this summer, especially on the heels of those conversations.

Kellie: 41:28

I just wanted to reiterate through all of that that I agree with you about that reservoir of unconditional love and that is really showing up for me in the way that he is embracing the giving back that he's doing right now as a bus driver and I have so much respect and admiration for both Pop and Katie and how they are giving back to their community that they are staying very active. Katie is a lover of nature. She's got these unbelievable gardens and flower beds and arches and arbors. She's incredible their big deck with all their hummingbird feeders and you know all that they are both pouring into in their lives now, individually and together. But Pop's love for and the stories that he shares with not just the children, that he is a part of their lives and so he gets to give that bottomless reservoir of energy like he has somewhere to kind of displace that on a daily basis. But the story is two of the parents that thank him, that appreciate him, that know that their children are safe and well cared for, well disciplined maybe because we know he's good at that too. I'm sure he has a no whining sign on his bus and if he doesn't, he needs to remember that was always in his office no whining. That's funny, but anyhow, yeah, we could talk all day long, we could talk for four more, five more episodes.

Kellie: 43:10

Just about a recap of Pop's episode.

Erin: 43:13

It's so true. And you know, the other thing talking about his reservoir of unconditional love is that he talked, you know, really openly in his episode that he didn't know if he could love again after mom passed and that Katie really helped him believe that having love again was possible and how instrumental she was in delivering the boxes to us and the very special role that she felt like she played in being a part of something that was so special and so sacred and she very intentionally did everything that she could to ensure that it stayed that way and kept him on track with the timeline of giving those boxes and all of that. But I equally love that the boxes, you know, were always delivered by Pop. But I also think it's very special that Katie played the role that she did in ensuring that each of those boxes was delivered according to mom's wishes, which I think is a really great testament to who she is as a human being and also their love that has continued to develop through the years and the really special place that they find themselves in in their 80s, at this stage of their life, very physically active, very go-getting, I mean, they are in the top echelon of people who are living at their age. They are living well, they are, which is really beautiful to see.

Kellie: 44:52

Yeah, that is really beautiful.

Erin: 45:35

So I would love to pivot this back. I think what might be a really beautiful way for you to incorporate not only your 11 days completely off grid in the wilderness, but I would also love to weave that into the episode that we also want to reflect on, which is Marcus's. And I don't know you and I have not had this conversation, so I don't know, because I do know that Marcus spent so many years of his life in the Pacific Northwest and in Oregon and we talk about that in episode 12. And so I would love for you to just share really openly about that experience of being in Oregon and if there was any kind of weaving of that story into your own summer adventure story.

Kellie: 46:36

Gosh, that's a really great question. Yeah, we're doing this on the fly, no plan whatsoever, raw, real and a little ridiculous. It's a really great question, Erin, and in fact, I really appreciate the question.

Kellie: 46:52

I will preface this by saying you know, we've done the Pacific Northwest tour, road trip tour every year for 15 years and so sometimes we go from Colorado up through Utah, Wyoming, Montana, drop down into Idaho and then home, Nevada, California, Utah all the way back. Sometimes we go up the middle of Idaho. Sometimes, you know, it's always a different route and we do everything that we can to stay off the interstate and be on two lane highways. It takes us a little bit longer, but we see so many things and have so many experiences, especially in and out of little towns, which we know.

Kellie: 47:33

Eventually we want to be in a smaller community, a community where number one, there's water...

Erin: 47:39

yes, that's a must!

Kellie: 47:41

... lakes, rivers, streams, oceans and lots of nature, but where, as you give to, you receive from. You know, you and I were both born and raised in Western Colorado. I am still here and this place is so different than when you and I grew up here. It's been discovered. Everybody's building everywhere. It's harder and harder to afford things. At the same time, it's bringing in culture and it's bringing in culinary experiences and it's bringing in all of these great things.

Kellie: 48:13

But we do know at some point in time, whether we stay partially here or leave here, that we want to be in smaller communities. So as we travel through the Pacific Northwest, we're always on the lookout. So we get off on our two lane roads At the same time. We kind of plan our trips in such a way that we're exploring new, uncharted territories but also revisiting places that have been either meaningful and important to us or especially to Marcus, and that was part of our intention this year and I would say, in big part his intention and I don't know, because I didn't ask him, if that was a spin off from some of the conversations that we've been having over the last eight, nine months of putting this podcast and these stories together, or if that's just something that he was really enthusiastic and excited to do.

Kellie: 49:06

Either way, we do have a lot of reflection during our road time about where he grew up, the experiences he had with his mom and his dad and his sister. Unfortunately, the relationship with his mom and his sister is estranged r ight now. His dad is gone. And so his family circle centers around me Savannah, Reis, Lily, and our granddaughter Reighn. And so I think that allows Marcus to really have this opportunity to remember all of the greatness of the time with his grandparents. We'll be looking at a map and he'll say, "Our grandparents took us from here over to here. This is what they must have been thinking. You know, they went fastest trip to the coast, or whatever it might be, because we spent so much time in Oregon this summer, I think that it did bring home some more memories, and as we listened to this episode again while we were traveling, there were a lot of stories beautiful stories, even beyond what listeners are going to hear in that episode about the years that he got to spend with his dad. Yeah, both the really beautiful experiences and the really difficult experiences, the health and the illness, the fishing, and the times where his dad couldn't get out and do anything. Yeah, and everything in between. And so what I was going to preface earlier and I'm now coming full circle is Katie, after she listened to the episode, which was after they had visited us in Oregon, sent Marcus a message and said I learned so much and it was also really telling to me how much being in Oregon, being in that specific part of the country, nourishes your heart, and so that was to me really cool, and so that was to me really cool, and I'm also really proud of my husband.

Kellie: 51:34

I'm really proud of the way that he shared his story with you, and you and I hadn't talked about that either.

Kellie: 51:36

You know, we didn't know really exactly where that whole conversation was going to go, and the topic of suicide is difficult. So many people know people who have either taken their life for whatever reason, or they know somebody who knows somebody who has had to navigate that journey, and that's a different one. It's a difficult one, and Marcus approached it in the moment with a level of conscious awareness of what it was, how it was and why it was that I find very inspiring. Not easy. It's still not easy to this day, but I do find it inspiring and I do think, as he said, if I share the story, maybe it will help somebody else navigate this journey with more simplicity, ease and grace, because nobody ran a four minute mile until somebody broke the barrier and ran it, and so I think to open up about that in the way that he did was very vulnerable and it was also very authentic.

Erin: 52:41

It was, it was a really beautiful conversation around a very fragile topic and even circling back to what we had talked about earlier in this the danger of making assumptions, and I think that suicide is one of those circles in which those of us who are left behind, regardless of the level of closeness, but I just think that you know, for anybody left in the wake of somebody making that decision to take their own life, it's maybe even easier to assume the why behind it or what was going on or in. There's so many questions and Marcus provided this shift in perspective that I think is very unique and really beautiful to acknowledge his dad and so much of the pain that he was living in physical, emotional, all of it. And while we might not truly quote unquote understand why somebody makes that decision, but to honor it as their choice and then to navigate through that grief with maybe a little bit different perspective and I would venture to say that maybe suicide more than any other type of death to have a conversation about the ability and the choice to find joy through that and to, like Marcus said so beautifully in one of our first episodes right To choose to turn that grief into gratitude, gratitude for so many different things. It's just really beautiful. So it's a very, very moving, powerful, vulnerable, raw, real conversation and one that I intend to re-listen to. Yeah, I know, it's Jason's. Actually, Jason has expressed several times that, while he loves all the conversations we've had and all of our episodes and he gains insight and little nuggets of wisdom from each and every one that episode is Jason's favorite and really touched his heart in a really profound way.

Kellie: 54:55

Wow, that's so beautiful to hear. I have to tell you, Erin, and I have told Marcus several times over... I'm proud of all of our episodes but it is my favorite episode too.

Kellie: 55:05

And there's so much in that episode that goes beyond the topic of suicide. That was just a really small topic in how he lost his dad. The whole episode was "n my father's footsteps, the father I lost, the father I've become, and so there's so much in there about his dad's growing up, his journey from Brooklyn out West, and what was not included in the episode is his dad hitchhiked across the United States,

Erin: 55:48

WHAT?!

Kellie: 55:49

I know. We were talking about it on our road trip. Can you believe it? Like, think back to being... what? He had to be... he was born in the forties so he had to be had to be in the 50s, early 60s, right? Yeah, early 60s. He left Brooklyn, New York, with a suitcase. You can picture the suitcase in one hand. That is all he had. His shoes, his clothes and he hitchhiked across the United States back when you could do that, it was a different time. Los Angeles, that's wild. Like. Think about that, right? So think about the tenacity and tenaciousness of that man. He hitchhiked across the United States from Brooklyn to LA.

Kellie: 56:35

That man was a warrior. Yep, like it takes a warrior to be able to do that 100%. That heartbeat of a warrior is what beats inside of Marcus's chest and I think that sometimes, when you are a warrior, that can be misunderstood. And what I loved, what you said in the episode that was so beautiful, is sometimes we're a warrior because we need to be and sometimes we're a warrior because we have to be and sometimes we are because we want to be. And I also thought that you know the connections that the two of you share. That was really fun for me, especially about volunteering for special needs kids. Yeah, but his conversations about being a dad and now being a papa and being a stepdad, a bonus dad to Reis and Lily, and how much that means to him, and the things that he looks at now in hindsight that he would do differently, both good and bad. But that's part of all of our journey in life.

Kellie: 57:30

I will tell you this, kind of circling back to kind of wrap up his episode and continue with our off-grid time in the wilderness and leaving all technology behind for 11 days computers, cell phones, text messages, podcasts, radios, like nothing. We had zero technology, except the day we went into restock and go and we couldn't get back into the woods fast enough, right, but while we were on the road we were talking about his dad hitchhiking. And then on our road trip faves playlist of music is his dad's favorite song in the whole entire world by Bill Withers, Ain't No Sunshine. And every time that song comes on his spirit just absolutely fills the space. And when Marcus talked about going back to work two days after his dad's passing and having to make that decision to take him off life support and let him go and needing to be with his people, his clients, that was the song that came on in his truck and where he knew in his heart my dad's telling me to keep on keeping on right, like going.

Kellie: 58:42

And when we get into the woods. This is part of the reason why we love it so much, Erin. It's not just the disconnection from technology. Nature reintroduces you to who you really are. We come from nature and we are nature and I believe that we tend to forget that as human beings and when we go into the woods and all of our little critter friends are there and I've got some really fun stories. There are certain experiences in nature, and with animals especially, that are glimpses and messages from both his father and our mother the bald eagle, the hawks, the ospreys, the fish, the little mink family, the mink family that we got to see this year. What a story. That was just such an incredible experience.

Kellie: 59:35

But when we sit by the river and we camp about, our tent is 12, 15 feet away from the river, so it's running all night long. It's constant and the ions and the energy and the humidity that's just coming off of that river all the time. But when we sit there in the morning and we have our coffee, we sit there in the evening and we have our rainier beer those are the conversations we're having is our relationship with each other, our children, our grandchild, our family you, Pop, Katie, all of our family and our parents, who are gone but still a really, really, really active, beautiful part of our life, and so part of disconnecting for so long is not just to heal our bodies and our minds and come back refreshed and rejuvenated and all that and we hear it, you know some people say, "oh, you're really lucky, or oh, good on you that you get to go do that. It takes a lot of work, a lot of planning and a lot of purposefulness to be able to pull off a vacation like that every summer. But it's also something that we committed to in the very earliest days of our relationship and said this is a priority for both of us and we absolutely cannot imagine our lives without that time away. And so I know that people can't always if they can't create that in their life or they're not already doing it. What I do want to encourage people to do is how could we take more three-day or four-day trips, sporadically or throughout the year? How can we weave more time in nature, more barefoot time on the grass or time by the water or going on a walk and taking out your earbuds and actually just listening to the birds which kind of pulls us into Matthew's episode and nature? I mean we are music and nature is human beings and nature is music. I mean it's just music everywhere. Anyhow, that's just a little kind of highlight of our time away in the woods and we just were planning 15 days next year.

Erin: 1:01:50

Yeah, you are. I love that. It warms my heart so much that you guys do make this a priority, that you very intentionally set aside that time, and I'm so grateful that you had such a great experience and so many incredible moments and, as you're talking about, yes, all your little woodland creature friends and the river and the river, I have reflected on Matthew's episode so much.

Erin: 1:02:29

It was so powerful. He's such a brilliant human being and so many of the ties in just life and, yes, our bodies and music and what it teaches us. He know he said something really cool in that episode where he said I'm not trying to teach music, I'm trying to teach life through music. And I feel like there's even a lesson that nature has for us in that if we would just, yes, take out our AirPods and just disconnect and stop scrolling and get away from screens and just be in nature and listen, to see the sights and listen to the sounds is really profound. So I think that we have a lot to learn from time in nature.

Kellie: 1:03:16

Well, there's so many harmonies and melodies. You know, the birds all talk. To each change in all of that, water has its own rhythm and melody. So, yes, we get. Yes, we get to do this wonderful summer vacation every year. We get to go even longer next year and I really want to encourage listeners to start thinking about your have tos as get tos. That was one of the great takeaways from that episode and one of the principles that Matthew is bringing to the forefront. That I think is so beautiful.

Kellie: 1:04:10

Take your have to do list and turn it in. Your get to do list and your body, energetically, will shift from a negative emotion or feeling around having to do something to I'm actually alive, I have hands, I have a car to drive, I've got hot water to clean dishes right. Instead of I have to do dishes, I get to clean dishes. Yeah, if we just approach dish cleaning because I know people in my adult world and in my children world that let the dishes pile up in the sink I don't get it Like. I just cannot go to bed with dishes in the sink and I cannot start my day without dishes put away. And I approach that as a get to like. I get to wash the dishes and I get to put the dishes away when we get out of the bed in the morning. It's not, I have to make the bed, I get to make the bed. Yeah, it's not I have to do these chores, it's, I get to do these chores.

Kellie: 1:05:17

It is such a simple gratitude practice and when you practice it with enthusiasm and you harness the treasure in it, it's such an easy, simple principle and I think that the way that it came to him through the 9-11 experience and how he has embedded that into his passion for being a leader and teaching leadership and doing it through music and being able to combine all of that into an upbeat movement is really beautiful and I just I can't thank Matthew enough for the time that he spent with us, the work that he's doing in the world and also the inspiration that he gave us on our trip to approach everything and even coming back to from your trip, right, because there's that re-entry period, approaching everything with more of a get to attitude. It totally changes how we show up in the world. I think it changes how we show up for ourselves and how we show up for the people around us, right, the people that we love. And when we have that shift in perspective of get to, you know music, as I shared in the solo episode that I did has been such an integral part of my life since I was a little, little girl. As I recorded that episode, I think the thing that struck out me the most was the moments that mom would just sit and listen to my fingers on the keys, yeah, and the joy that she got out of that. And sewing and needle pointing and anything crafting watercolors, pastels, oils, cooking, like you name it, arts and crafts and gosh, going back to Pop, being a master of all things. Mom was a jack of all trades. I mean, she just covered it all.

Kellie: 1:07:17

But music really was something that I feel like started my life and experience with her and ended my life and experience with her. I have no doubt that even when I was gestating for nine months, she was probably listening to music, singing music, dancing to music. You know 100%. I mean, I know she was, and with you too, because we always had cool music playing in the house and you know, while you were gestating I was pounding away at the piano, you poor soul, trying to learn all my songs for all my recitals with Mrs Heetland. I love it, but the very last thing mom and I did together was lie in bed and listen to "Christopher's Dream by David Lanz over and over and over again, and nobody can ever take that experience away.

Kellie: 1:08:08

Music filled in the space that words, there were no words. That last day that I spent with her, there just were no words. Number one it was hard for her to talk with all that cancer in her lungs and fluid on her lungs. And number two, she was scared and sad and at the same time, I think, hopeful were for what the next phase of her spiritual journey was going to be. And we talked about that in Matthew's episode. That music fills a space that words cannot feel sometimes, and I experienced that firsthand, and so that that was really profound and powerful for me. It was such a beautiful solo recording that you did and an amazing time of reflection, and I think the tie in, you know, on the heels of the episode with Matthew and really being so in tune with that musicality of your own life was really special that you shared it with me and with all of our listeners also think that it's so beautiful how then she had such an amazing career in radio and how obviously important that was and how important music was to her in her life.

Erin: 1:09:33

And I also want to acknowledge you in how intentional you are with the music selections in our podcast, because you do all of the production right and you and I'm like I don't know, just use that same clip that you used last time and you're like, no, I can't do that, I'm like nobody's gonna notice. But you would notice, you know it, and the fact that it's just important enough to you and that I know it actually brings you so much joy to listen to the music and then to find the perfect bridge in between segments or, you know, just beginning and end. You have such a gift for it and I personally am so thankful for it. But I do also want our listeners to know how intentional you are with it and how important it is, and I never question it. I never have to listen ahead of time and tell you what I like or what I don't like, because I know that you're going to do such a beautiful job and it's going to be perfect each and every time, and so I'm really thankful for the way that you pour your heart into how music is woven into this heart project.

Kellie: 1:11:02

Wow, Erin. Well, I am going to accept and open that beautiful gift of a compliment, with its pretty bow on top, which is a story that I haven't yet fully shared on this podcast, and we will do that at some point. You've brought it up a couple times, and that compliment is a true gift, and so I'm willing to accept that. Thank you. That means a lot to me because it is purposeful and meaningful. As soon as you said that, I thought to Marcus's episode, and when he was talking about his dad going onto the Navajo Reservation and having the ability to do it with no gun, no knife, no protection whatsoever, because he knew he could handle it and he did it not only because he had to, but because he wanted to, for the safety and protection of those children, because that was his job and social work.

Kellie: 1:11:52

That music had to be spot on, yeah, and so that's, I think, just a beautiful example, and so I appreciate that very, very much, and I think music reminds me of nature too. In fact, there was a one in Matthew's episode where we were talking about birds and I tried to pull music in that had tweeting little birds, you know, in it, and so thank you for that. I appreciate that.

Erin: 1:12:16

You're welcome, I love you and I just want to make sure that you know that I see it.

Kellie: 1:12:22

Well, thank you. I think the last thing I'll say about that episode and the book "Motherless Daughters by Hope Edelman, which is a great book for any woman who's ever lost a mom, a grandma, knows people who have. We're all going to be there. Every single one of us is going to be there. She wrote a book that she needed, that she couldn't find.

Kellie: 1:12:44

And circling back to Katie's episode because I acknowledge Katie in my solo episode and thank you for the space to be able to record that. It was just on my heart. Yeah, is once you are a daughter, you are always a daughter is once you are a daughter, you are always a daughter. And so, just as Pop wasn't sure he could allow love into his life again, I think you and I were also young women you were a kiddo still when mom died they didn't know if we could allow mother love back into our life again, and through Katie, we did, and it's been a beautiful story to share. It's a beautiful story that continues to unfold, and so I would just end our episode recaps on that: "Once you are a daughter, you are always a daughter, and I would say, in regard to nature.

Kellie: 1:13:32

Nature does so many things. As a health and wellness coach, as a wellness practitioner, as a genetic health practitioner - all the years that I've spent in fitness, nutrition, wellness... you too - the one thing we know is that being in nature does so many good things for us. It reconnects us to ourselves, to each other, to the earth from which we came and will eventually go back to. It lowers cortisol, anxiety, depression. It improves our mood, our energy, our focus. It supports grief and healing, and I think if we want to really understand what life, love, loss and legacy is all about, then all we need to really do is spend a little bit more time in nature and turn off the screens, turn off the television, take out the earbuds and turn off the screens, turn off the television, take out the earbuds, even if it's just 10, 15 minutes a day. Try it, experiment with it and see what it does to positively impact and change your life for the better.

Erin: 1:14:32

I love it. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. I couldn't have said it better myself, and with that, I hope that our listeners go out and enjoy nature.

The Sisters: 1:15:09

Hearing the stories of others helps us create a more meaningful connection to our own. We hope today's conversation offered you insight, encouragement or even just a moment to pause and reflect on the story you're living and the legacy you're creating. If something in this episode moved you, please consider sharing it with someone you love. A small share can make a big impact. You can also join us on Instagram, facebook or LinkedIn and connect further at thepigpodcastcom. And if you're enjoying this podcast, one of the most meaningful ways you can support us is by leaving a five-star rating, writing a short review or simply letting us know your thoughts. Your feedback helps us reach others and reminds us why we do this work, because the PIG isn't just a podcast. It's a place to remember that, even in the midst of grief, life goes on, resilience matters and love never leaves. Thanks for being on this journey with us. Until next time. Hogs and kisses everyone.