Behind the Boxes: In the "Hot Seat" with Chris Howard

One year into The Boxes project, something unexpected happened: the story about preserving their mother’s legacy became the very thing that healed Kellie and Erin’s own relationship.

In this episode, the sisters reunite with film and television producer Chris Howard—this time in the hot seat—as he turns the questions back on them. Together they unpack:

• The seven-year age gap that shaped their bond as sisters.
• How business ventures and unspoken expectations became battlegrounds.
• The promise Kellie made to their dying mother—and the weight it carried for decades.
• Why healing in real time makes this project so raw, authentic, and powerful.
• The truth that their mother’s greatest gift wasn’t in the boxes she left behind… it was in giving them each other.

Through vulnerability, laughter, and a few tears, this conversation reveals the deeper heart of The Boxes story—and why legacy isn’t just what we leave, but how we live.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to The PIG Podcast
• 2:17 One Year Into The Project
• 9:41 The Advocare Years and Sister Dynamics
• 21:29 Resentment, Independence, and Mothering
• 32:57 Unexpected Healing in Real Time with Chris
• 48:16 Portraying Real People with Honesty
• 1:08:01 Legacy, Imperfection, and Moving Forward
• 1:13:51 The Greatest Gift: Each Other

Transcript

The Sisters: 0:19

Thank you. Family dynamics and ultimately into the universal journey of living life, experiencing love, navigating loss and redefining what it means to both live and leave a legacy. It's been a season of discovery, healing and reconnecting with the very pieces of a story we didn't even realize were missing. And what a journey it's been. Today we're back with Chris, our friend and now an adopted brother, not just to share all that's transpired, but to give you a sneak peek into his creative process.

The Sisters: 0:51

This time, the sisters are in the hot seat to answer looming questions that dig deeper, reveal the innermost layers of our lives and uncover the true heart of this story, because the greatest gift our mother gave us wasn't found in a box. It was found in each other, and that's a gift we're still unwrapping, one conversation at a time. Welcome to The P-I-G, where we explore life, love, loss and legacy through real conversations and meaningful stories, with purpose, intention and gratitude. I'm Erin and I'm Kellie. We're sisters, best friends, sometimes polar opposites, but always deeply connected by the life and love of the woman who still loves guides. and teaches from beyond... our mother, Marsha.

Erin: 1:34

So Chris, welcome back to

Chris Howard: 1:35

the PIG Da-na-na,

The Sisters: 1:35

Da-na-na.

Chris Howard: 2:14

I am happy to be back with my sisters and to talk about this wonderful story that has just absolutely completely consumed me all in the good, all in the in the good ways, I should say. It has been a journey, and I think when we initially started talking about this project, I think I remember telling you guys like it's going to be a process, it's going to be a journey. I don't think I quite realize how true those words would be.

Erin: 2:30

It has been a journey.

Chris Howard: 2:32

It has been a journey of and just like you know, I think, because when you become so like involved in a story, you always feel like you understand it, you have a grasp of it, but then when you really start to like, dive into, like, putting it together, you realize there's some missing pieces, there's some other things that you didn't quite, you didn't quite understand. But then the story also continues to evolve and I think it evolves because we're dealing with three dynamic women in their own right and you want to do the project justice by making sure you're telling the right complete story. And I'm anal, so you know I've got, I have to get it right.

Erin: 3:16

That's one of the things that I have loved so much about every moment of this process is how thorough you are and how completely and how accurately you want to tell this story, and so putting all of these pieces together has been an extraordinary process and journey, and we're still going, and I can't wait to reflect more on that today. But it's one of the things that I admire about you the most is your commitment to it. So I concur with that and, Chris, I have a question for you, because when Erin and I first met with you a year ago it's crazy. It's been a year. We are at the one year mark, exactly Right, and six months ago we launched, have never been in this process of bringing a story to this place as a potential television or documentary or film or whatever, and we'd love to kind of hear your feedback on what the last year has revealed and where we're at with the process. But can you explain kind of how this whole process even works?

Chris Howard: 4:48

Yeah, I think it's different depending on the project and depending on the person or persons. Right, if you have one subject matter, right, if you have one person, it's easy to tell their story because it's essentially it's a through line, right? It's from point A to point Z. Right, you follow them throughout their life. It's essentially it's a through line, right, it's from point A to point Z, right, you follow them throughout their life and of course, there's some twists and some turns in that.

Chris Howard: 5:11

But when you have three different people whose lives you're trying to tell their story, it becomes a little bit more difficult. So you really have to sit with people and really understand who they are, what motivates them, what makes them tick, their desires, their fears, their shortcomings, the things that make them happy. You really have to dive into that because, if you think about it, there's really no, there's no source material, right, there's no book out there on you guys for me to go option and I can read the book and get the or get the cliff notes and understand, like, who you guys are. So it's like I'm having to really immerse myself in your lives and that's why we've become so close, right, that's why we call each other brother and sister, because I've kind of had to interject myself in you guys' life to really understand the story that needs to be told.

Chris Howard: 6:05

And I think once you're able to do that, then everything else kind of starts to fall in place. The dominoes start to line. Then it becomes. Well, here's the. We know the film structure, right. We know there's a series structure. Now it's just about how do we put those pieces in place. And I think when you're dealing with a story that is as I don't want to call it, it's not complicated, it is. There's so many moving pieces, right, and each character has, like we talked last time, I'm like, literally Erin can have a whole movie about herself. You know, Kellie can have a entire movie about herself.

Kellie: 6:43

Because she is complicated.

Erin: 6:47

Talk about complicated

Kellie: 6:49

That girl is complicated!

Chris Howard: 6:53

And your mother can have her own story right, Because there's enough. You know there's trauma and drama, right, that is in every person's life, in this story. So you have to be able to tell that. But also show how they're connected, because the connections is what ultimately sends you guys on a different path and then back to each other. You know what I mean. So it's you know, it's one of those projects where, again, like you really have to, it's going to take up a lot of your life. You have to be consumed with it, you have to want to tell the story in the right way, and for me it's. I haven't quite, I've never done a story like this, so even for me this is new territory.

Kellie: 7:37

What drew you, Chris, really to this story from the beginning? Because we talked in episode one and that was six months ago, so we were six months into our project and so much has happened since that time. So, before we dive into the last six months, I'd love to hear from you what really attracted you to this story from the beginning. And I do want to encourage people, if they haven't, to go back and listen to episode one, because it is really fun to see where we are now versus where we were then.

Chris Howard: 8:12

I think you know, obviously you know we have a great mutual friend of ours. You know Jason Jepson, who introduced me to Erin and told me about the story and then introduced me to Erin because I know Jason, I love Jason. Jason is a publicist so he can sell, you know, ice to an Eskimo. So I needed to make sure that he wasn't just upselling and come to find out. I feel like he wasn't even selling it enough, but even he probably didn't know all the things that have kind of come out over the last year himself.

Chris Howard: 8:43

So I think initially what I saw was a woman who looked death in the face and said I'm going to try to be everything that I can be, knowing that I have a short amount of time to be here, but also about what kind of legacy I want to leave for my daughters and for me personally as I get older and think about my own mortality. Right, I never had kids. So when I start to think about what am I leaving behind? Right, because I didn't have any kids, got some dogs, but I don't have any kids as I started to think about my own mortality, it's about what kind of legacy am I leaving behind? I may not be leaving a legacy in the sense of I'm passing this down onto my kids. It may be the legacy that I'm passing down to the people that I come across paths that come across mine.

Chris Howard: 9:36

And so when I thought about it, I just thought about like this is such a powerful story to tell, because a lot of us are looking for inspiration these days, a lot of us are looking for any sign of hope in humanity, because I feel like we are living in a time of just despair and doom and gloom, that we need more stories like this, and I think also we need more stories like this where we're talking about strong-willed women and I don't want to get political and I think also we need more stories like this where we're talking about strong-willed women and I don't want to get political, but I think we're seeing things now where we're pushing this narrative that women have to occupy a certain type of box in order for her to feel complete and to feel that she is a traditional woman or wife or whatever. I feel like we need to have stories like this, because not every woman fits in that box you know, and they shouldn't have to feel that way.

Chris Howard: 10:32

So for me, that's kind of what drew me to. The story was about legacy.

Erin: 10:37

I have to interject a thought really quick because this is so poignant. You know, we've been referring to this project as the boxes and we talk a lot about the boxes that she left behind, and it's interesting how your statement of kind of breaking those societal boxes falls in line with that and those other boxes right that we're trying to leave behind in the past, and so that's a really interesting play on words and I love how those two things kind of overlap and even parallel each other a little bit.

Kellie: 10:39

quick because this is so poignant. You know, we've been referring to this project as the boxes and we talk a lot about the boxes that she left behind, and it's interesting how your statement of kind of breaking those societal boxes falls in line with that and those other boxes right that we're trying to leave behind in the past, and so that's a really interesting play on words and I love how those two things kind of overlap and even parallel each other a little bit.

Kellie: 11:18

I think the synchronicity of that is really quite cool. You know the philosophical side of that.

Chris Howard: 11:24

Yeah, great thought.

The Sisters: 11:25

Erin, Thanks for sharing. Yeah, absolutely, it's interesting to Chris hearing you talk about.

The Sisters: 11:31

you know, even Jason not necessarily fully realizing what all was at play here, and I would venture to say that even Kellie and I didn't really know, the depth of what this really was, because, as we talked about in episode one and we've talked about every episode since, and Kellie and I have a lot of side conversations and, of course, the three of us meet almost weekly working on this project and we continue to have conversations that we've never had. We continue to discuss topics that have either been untouched or we just start to really dig deeper into things that we've really scratched the surface of over the years, and for me, this entire journey has also been a great uncovering of life and love and memories, and I just I could talk about it for hours and hours and hours, but it's really been an extraordinary process.

Chris Howard: 12:38

Yeah.

The Sisters: 12:39

I think the growth that we have had personally, together, even with all of our family members, that has been quite unexpected for me.

The Sisters: 12:50

I didn't know what to expect going into the project and what has come out of it. No matter what happens or does not happen with this story publicly, because it's always been a private story, it is about the reconnection, the growth, the healing, the discovery, the lessons and, like Erin said, the conversations that we have had that I don't think normal family members are having with each other, and if that alone inspires people to ask others questions and to dig deeper into the heart of that human being. All of this has been so worth it and it has been so beautiful, full of so much joy, full of so much fun and challenge which we can talk about. Some of that too. But it's been incredible and, Chris, I have such incredible gratitude I know Erin does too in our hearts for how you have approached us individually, collectively, our family members and just the story with such tenderness and compassion and empathy and heart. It has been an extraordinary experience.

Chris Howard: 14:11

Yeah, I think on our calls. I think maybe one of the things I mean. There's plenty other things, but I think one of the things that kind of shocked me was that the healing hadn't happened yet. You know what I mean, and I think a lot of times when we go to tell these types of stories, there's been a reckoning already. You know what I mean. We're over it, this is our story, we're good with it, you're right, but the healing hadn't happened yet and so, as we're going through it, all those raw emotions are like real. They're like real and in real time.

Chris Howard: 14:52

And I think that's one of the things we had talked about before when we talked about why we were doing the video. Part of this was so that whoever we pass this story on to write, they're not just seeing the words on paper. They're seeing the actual emotions of these characters and how certain things have affected them, and that allows a writer to really write true to who the character is, because now you've got, you can see the raw emotions. So I think that's one of the things, too, that you know I've worked on other projects. You know, especially in the true crime, of the things, too, that you know I've worked on other projects, you know, especially in the true crime space where I've had to, you know, talk to people who've lost their loved ones to you know crime and stuff like that and it kind of reminded me of that.

Chris Howard: 15:36

But this was, this was different. This was more familial, right, not that you've lost a loved one in a tragic way, but it's like you've lost a connection, you've lost a part of you, but in a more spiritual and endearing way, right, and so I think that's one of the things that kind of caught me off guard was like I'm like, wow, okay, so no one's healed here and we're having this Counselor Chris, we are figuring this thing out as we go along.

Chris Howard: 16:09

And so I felt like it was like okay, I have to be very careful with this story because, at the end of the day, I was a stranger right and I have to try to get you guys to open up to me in order for us to tell the right story. So I try, know, I try to do what I can do.

Erin: 16:28

Well, you have definitely not felt like a stranger from day one, I will say, and you absolutely deserve an honorary doctorate as a licensed therapist as far as I'm concerned. Licensed therapist, as far as I'm concerned, yeah, so it's just. I cannot imagine working with anybody else, I just can't. I mean, it's just this story and the healing and the journey that we have been on is because of you and it's through you, and so much of our growth my growth personally, has been, like Kellie said, because of your tenderness, your compassion, your heart to really know and understand us and where we're coming from and to dig in and your willingness to ask some tough questions. And I think that that is so much of what has prompted so many of these healing conversations, conversations that we didn't know we needed to have to take a step forward in the right direction.

Erin: 17:36

And so it's been beautiful. Every step of it it's been beautiful and, yes, it's been joy filled and it's come with a lot of tears and some challenges, but all of that is part of the beauty of all of it. I really believe in timing and synchronicity and I shared in episode one and we have talked about it so many times Erin and I were really at a crossroads in our relationship and we didn't really even know and understand why. It was just because we weren't talking and there had been a gap and a disconnect and our mother had left us these beautiful gifts. But what we failed to remember was that the greatest gift of all that she left us was each other and you, this project, these conversations have given us that gift, and I see her hand at play in all of it.

Erin: 18:31

So I believe that you were hand selected and hand chosen and that it was you who was the one who could do this for and with us. So big gratitude. And today you're putting us in the hot seat. A little sneak peek into how all this works in the creative process. And, as my dear friend Trina once said to me long, a long time ago, let's feed multiple birds with one crumb, and there's some things that you want to uncover and some more information that you want, and we thought this would be a great way to spend today's podcast.

Chris Howard: 19:11

Absolutely so I'm like are we taking a break or are we going to drive right in?

The Sisters: 19:16

We can do whatever we want.

Chris Howard: 19:19

That's right.

The Sisters: 19:19

We are the bosses.

Chris Howard: 19:21

This is the P-I-G. Just kind of going back to what you just said, Kellie. It was again like going back to where we, where we were in a story, it was always the okay, why are we here? Right, I know we're here to tell this, to tell this wonderful story, but what got us here? You know what I mean. And going back to kind of like what I was saying was realizing like, oh, like we're, we're here, like my first impression of you guys are like I'm like, oh, my god, these are like great sisters and they're so close or whatever.

Chris Howard: 20:23

And then you find out like there was kind of this divide even then. Now I want to say divide, but there wasn't the connection that you guys have right now. You know what I mean and, like I said before, you know usually when you get into these types of stories, right, you know things have been resolved. So it was kind of like trying to figure out like where does this story take place? Where's the center of this story? And I think on our last conversation, after all this time, we finally got there to figure out what was the catalyst in all of this. I want to start with the Advocare years, because I feel like, that's a time where we've touched on a little bit but we didn't really dive really deep into it and, from my understanding, I wanted to really know, like you know, Kellie, you're doing your thing, you're killing it in that space, right, Erin, where were you? And I always say this, but where were you mentally, emotionally, at that time in your life, like what were you searching for at that moment?

Erin: 21:34

Wow, I am not really sure what I was searching for when that business venture started, and I say that because I, you know, I was graduated from college and I was working full time and I was newly married, in my first marriage, and this opportunity presented itself and Kellie called me and she was very excited and you know, I grew up as an athlete and I was a personal trainer and group fitness instructor and so living in the world of, you know, vitamins and supplements and meal replacements and all of that was seemingly right up my alley. However, when Kellie, you know, called and wanted to share this with us, I was really in this space of let me back up. When she first called and wanted to share this opportunity with us, I looked at Rob and basically said if you want to work with my sister, you go work with my sister. I'm not working with my sister and not because there was some great divide between us and I really like I just it's so hard for me to go back to that mental space of where I was, to that mental space of where I was. But we dove in and I started, you know, using some of these products and taking these vitamins and I felt great and I was like, well, shit, here we go, okay, I'm on board.

Erin: 23:09

You know, you've got to remember that Kellie and I are seven years apart and so we grew up in two pretty different worlds and I've always loved her and respected her and admired her, but I really wanted her to be my sister and I know that she felt so much responsibility to step in and be a mom to me after our mom died and so she really had that maternal instinct. So it's so interesting because I probably would have answered this question very differently a year ago and I certainly would have answered it very differently 10 years ago, 20 years ago. But it's actually cool to revisit it now, being in this space and having some of the conversations that we've had, because I can look back and acknowledge that during that time I really wanted a sister and needed a sister, and I don't think either of us really knew what that looked like, quite honestly, because she had been thrown into this motherly role. From the time that I was very, very little, when our mom was faced with her first cancer diagnosis, when I was five years old, Kellie was her caretaker and my caretaker, and so and that was really her role you know all along. But you know, as we, as we started on this journey together in the direct sales industry, Kellie just this and she's an incredible leader. I know I'm talking about her like she's not sitting right here, but but she is just. I mean she.

Erin: 24:45

I've always had this just immense amount of respect and admiration for her because seemingly, as the little sister it was, you know, everything she touched turned to gold type of mindset for me, and so you know we everything she touched turned to gold type of mindset for me. And so you know, we dove in and we were business partners and it was cool. We started, you know, being able to travel together a little bit and go to events and all sorts of things, and so we started spending more and more time together and it was just really incredible and it was a beautiful thing. But Kellie really started to rise through the ranks rapidly and achieve amazing milestones and was leading an incredible team and building an incredible business. And I wasn't, I was trying, but so much of it was just different personality and not really seeing myself as a leader at that time, kind of just more as a follower and just kind of doing what I was told like I'd been trying to do my whole life.

Erin: 25:50

And the thing that was interesting during those years was, you know, because of her success and really being seen by almost everybody within that company who started to know her and recognize her and she's training from stage and earning all the trips and all of the things is that I started really introducing myself as, and became known as, Kellie little sister and I think I grew to resent her almost for that, when it's not her fault.

Erin: 26:27

But I think that my resentment grew because I felt like my whole life I had been known as Kellie little sister and even though now, like if that was how people knew me, like I have such a sense of pride, I'm so proud to be Kellie little sister, but my whole life I felt like I was kind of known as Kellie little sister and I feel like I had finally moved out of our hometown and gone to college and was out on my own, then graduated from college and I'm working and I'm just trying to make my own way right in this town.

Erin: 27:05

And I moved away from Western Colorado, I moved away from home, and I felt like I had had several years of breaking through that and finding myself and my own identity and learning more about me and what I wanted to do with my life and what I was good at and you know all of the things, and so then to kind of be thrown back into an environment and into a world where my identity kind of became known as Kellie little sister again, I didn't really know how to handle that, quite honestly, and so I struggled through those years. That was really hard for me.

Chris Howard: 27:49

And Kellie, did you ever feel the resentment? Were there moments where maybe you know, maybe you would ask Erin to do something and Erin was like you know, here we go again, or like, did you feel the resentment? I guess and I can give you a personal example for me, and you guys kind of know my family history I'm the baby in the family. I've got an older brother, older sister. My older brother is 15 years older than I am, my older sister is 10 years older than I am, and their lives were not great, let's just put it like that. And I went to, you know, I played sports and I was. I never got in any trouble. I went to college and did you know pretty good things, and I definitely know that my older brother and older sister resented me for that right. There were certain things and actions that they would do or say that you'd be like, wow, like did you not hear how? You just said that? You know what I mean, like, whether it's a tone or quip or something. Did you feel that resentment?

Kellie: 28:56

That's a really great question, Chris, and I think, like Erin, it's so hard to go back to those years, in the sense that, as Erin was talking, I was thinking to myself she was 24 years old, I was 31. I had a little kid who had just turned five and you know, he's 28 years old now and, as much as he is a man, he's still my child, my son. I just see him as, sometimes as a little boy, and so, contemplating the fact that Erin was 24, and I was 31. And we went into what became a really wild adventure very quickly, and we were also living in two different communities across the state in Colorado, my heart was a sister who was fulfilling a promise to our mother, which was to ensure that Erin was always going to be okay. So when this business started to evolve and develop and we were both in the fitness industry and so it just kind of made sense, she and her then husband at the time, rob, were both very into athletics of all different types, and this was, you know, you were a professional and collegiate football player. You knew about the company and the products and all of that at that time, but the point being that it seemed like a very natural, go on a journey with me in an environment that wasn't her being my little sister or me being the big sister, and that is what it kind of turned into. That wasn't planned, that wasn't what my intention was or her intention. It just kind of unfolded that way. Her intention, it just kind of unfolded that way.

Kellie: 30:59

And now that we all own stock in Kleenex, I've got my tissues right here. You know my heart, my heart, feels several things right now in this moment. Number one I am so happy that we have created a space where we can have these very honest, raw, vulnerable, authentic conversations with each other, because it's good for us to be reminded how our actions, our behaviors, our intentions even unknowingly, created periods of resentment. And as the years and the decades pass, if those resentments are stacked and layered on top of each other which I believe is a lot of what happened to Erin and I then that can be really really tough to unravel and to break down. And so to be able to go back almost 25 years now and say this is kind of where the first real resentment started and I know there were some resentments with Erin being the baby of the family and seven years old and all kinds of stuff. I mean, just as siblings, we probably all three had some resentments, you resentments that layered on through the years.

Kellie: 32:20

I didn't ever feel consciously Erin's resentment.

Kellie: 32:25

I do believe, Erin, that we had some conversations during that time because there were some hiccups as we went through that business. I think we swept a lot of that under the rug I would agree with that for sure, and because we were both committed to staying sisters and staying close because we really were all we had. You know, our mom didn't have a relationship at all with her mother, her brother, there were no cousins, no family members, nothing, and it was really just the two of us until Pop and Scott came into the picture very shortly after her first cancer diagnosis. And so we always had this thread of commitment and obligation to each other. And I think in that obligation is maybe where some of the resentment took seed, it took hold, and I absolutely unequivocally see and understand how Erin built resentment through those years because of how the business just built and unfolded, even though I felt like in my heart and mind I was doing everything in my power to ensure that she had a very successful business alongside my very successful business.

Chris Howard: 33:52

I think it comes from Erin having a taste of her own independence, Erin having a taste of her own independence, her own, her life, away from Kellie Right and the mothering of Kellie Right. She goes through college and she's got her own thing and then now she's back in, kind of like Kellie shadow, right. And so as you're, as you're saying, like again, this obligation, you feeling this obligation that you have to get Erin on the right path, you know what I'm saying. Like I have to, you know, make sure she's taken care of or whatever. And what Erin is saying is, at the end of the day, I just want my sister right, not necessarily for you to continue to feel obligated to make sure I land on my feet right. And so I think that probably, right, there has always been the theme for Erin is you have done a great job of mothering me, stop. You have done a great job, you're fired Stop, you're fired, it's time to stop. It is time to stop, right.

Chris Howard: 35:20

And so I think that's kind of where where that could come from, right.

Chris Howard: 35:21

And and then again, of course, there's as in any business, right, there's ups and downs and there's things that kind of come with that. But I could definitely see, like you know, Kellie as this superstar executive and then Erin, who is, by her own words, will say listen, like I'm not the greatest student, I like to have some fun Right and trying to you know, maneuver in this, in this world, where Kellie is is at the top, right, yeah, so I could definitely see that, and I think that's one of the things that I've always wanted to kind of dive into is because, as we're laying out this story, as we're talking about how this will look visually, that's where we have to be able to show that kind of budding of the heads, right, because that is as we talked before. There's a bunch of themes that are woven in and out of this story, but there are some threads that are very linear, that are constant. This period in time of your life has to be where we start to see some of the cracks.

Kellie: 36:11

Yeah.

Chris Howard: 36:12

You know what I mean. Maybe we see them early on, but we see that there continues to be little pulls on the thread and I think those years are super important for us to get right. So I'm glad we had that conversation because that cleared it up. I wanted you guys to kind of have that conversation because, like I said, the person who's writing this needs to see that and be able to make sure that they get that part right.

Erin: 36:36

Sure, it's really too, because, as the baby of the family who grew up in a household with a sick mom, you know she she was not well for a lot of years of my childhood and I think that after mom died I was 17. It was my senior year of high school and I feel like I definitely just kind of fell off the rails a little bit and was just floundering through that time of my life, just feeling very lost, right, not knowing how to manage that and coupled with the fact that I was at a boarding school, you know, away from my dad, away from my sister. And then I went to college and, yes, like we've talked about, I loved my college experience. I had a lot of fun. It took me five years and two summers to graduate and I entered school in my major A really good time. But I think it's also worth mentioning that, you know, through those years I just kind of floundered my way through school too. I was fiercely independent and didn't want anybody to tell me what to do and certainly, in the throes of grief after losing my mom, I really didn't want anybody to mother me not Kellie, not my mom's friends, who tried to check in on me and mother me. I grew to really resent them for that as well, because I was immature enough to not be able to recognize what the intention was behind that. I just didn't see it for what it was At the time. Now, as a 48 year old, I can look back on that time and be like, oh shoot, I was such a brat, but I didn't know that. That's what I was at the time, right.

Erin: 38:35

And then I think, as part of that, just feeling lost and wanting, you know, human connection on the deepest level, you know, I met and married my first husband very quickly. We met in September, got engaged in December and got married in July. So it was 10 months from when we met till we got married. I was 21 or I was 24. He was 21. We were young. And so I think that there's also an element of that that all of a sudden I was engaged to get married and my entire family was like, didn't even really know Erin was dating anybody. That's true. So I know that there were conversations that were had between Kellie and Scott and Pop, like what, like, what is she doing? Who is this guy? You know, and again, hindsight's, 20-20. And a lot of lessons learned and I have two beautiful, amazing children as a result of that marriage. But we never had a great marriage, which is a whole different topic of conversation.

Erin: 39:43

But I feel like we met in 2001. We got married in 2002. We started with AdvoCare in the same year, 2002. And then I had my first son in 2004, and then my second in 2006. And so it was just a crazy chaotic time of life, and it wouldn't surprise me if there was even a subconscious feeling that Kellie had of I have got to reel in this wild child. Reel in this wild child because she did make these promises to our mom that she would take care of me and she would not let anything bad happen to me. And here I was, crazy, independent, out there, living my own life, and all of a sudden I'm getting married and doing this and doing that, and my whole family was like what on earth is this child doing? And so it doesn't surprise me now, looking back on it, that Kellie was like I have got to take my sister along for this ride and do whatever I can to try to straighten out her path a little bit, because I was, I was a wild card.

Chris Howard: 41:33

And Kellie, what did you think when you heard Erin was getting married?

Kellie: 41:38

I wasn't surprised because I always knew, as wild child as Erin was, relationships are at the core of who she is as a human being. I always knew that she wanted to be a mom and so that part of getting married early and starting a family early didn't surprise me. It's interesting because, as we're having this conversation, I had almost the same thought, Erin. I thought to myself oh my gosh, I bet I unconsciously went into promise, unconsciously went into promise caretaking, mothering, maternal overdrive, because we would be remiss to not acknowledge and kind of uncover and unpack a little bit that didn't start in college, that started in high school. And there were some events that happened in high school that of course I knew about, even though I was away at college and trying to live my own life as a young woman and get away right from the family and mom was actually doing pretty well through those years and starting my life and what's my career going to look like and what am I going to study and who am I going to be and become.

Kellie: 43:01

And I would get phone calls. This was pre-cell phone, pre-texting landline only, but I would get phone calls in Boulder and then later, after I graduated in Arizona, from mom, "Erin, ran away. I can't find her. Erin's holed up at somebody's house and the parents are protecting her and I don't know where she's at. There was quite a bit of crazy stuff and I was such an idiot, you know, scott and I would get in trouble academically if we got anything under a B. That was just not acceptable and I've got some fun stories about that Losing my car for 17 and a half weeks because I got a C, one quarter, and that was right pre-computer. So you couldn't get your car back until your printed report cards came back out. You know, months and months later.

Kellie: 43:57

Anyhow, Erin wasn't doing as well academically in high school and I remember mom sat down with all of her teachers. She was concerned about the path that Erin was going down and the teachers looked at her point blank and said she's not pregnant, she's not on drugs, she's getting decent grades. What's the problem? And you know, knowing Marsha Thomas, that was not going to work. And so that was the beginning of looking at alternative education opportunities and options and ultimately the decision that Erin made collectively with them, a little begrudgingly I think, to go to boarding school.

Kellie: 44:38

And so because of all of that experience and because then mom went into her second cancer diagnosis and then her third and terminal cancer diagnosis, as Erin was still in her wild child phase and she was sad and angry and scared about leaving her life and her girls and her work, everything that she loved, her husband, everything, her family, her friends, everything.

Kellie: 45:05

And her biggest fear was being a picture in the bottom of somebody's drawer.

Kellie: 45:10

And we had a lot of conversations as I was just 23, turning 24 years old, and so I think I had to grow up really, really fast on the heels of already having had to grow up really, really fast, on the heels of having to grow up already really, really fast, going all the way back to being a little girl.

Kellie: 45:31

She, in addition to her fear of being a picture in the bottom of somebody's drawer, her fear was leaving Erin before Erin was old enough to take care of Erin, because she was still a kid, and so I was asked to make commitments that I think if our mother were alive today she probably wouldn't ask, but she asked him then because she didn't know what else to do. And I take my commitments and my obligations and my loyalty very, very seriously, and I'm sure I took it too seriously, but I had to grow up really, really fast and I'm sure that during that phase of Erin life, unconsciously, I probably did go into hypervigilance mode and I was like you are not the boss of me, stop telling me what to do all the time. Go far, far away.

Chris Howard: 46:28

Right.

Erin: 46:29

Just because you're bossy doesn't mean you're the boss.

Chris Howard: 46:32

Right, right. Just because you're the boss doesn't mean you're the boss of me.

Kellie: 46:36

Hey, I have socks and you gave them to me. I'm not bossy, I'm the boss.

Chris Howard: 46:43

Listen, when you buy socks, you pretty much give up the argument.

Erin: 46:46

It's true there's a long history behind those socks, but I mean, I think all of that is really true and now, man, it makes so much sense, right, but at the time it was hard and I think that we clearly we know, especially with therapist Chris in our pocket that there was a lot of unhealed trauma at play, you know, for both of us, and so we were doing the best that we could at the time with what we knew and what we had.

Erin: 47:20

Yeah, those were really good times and also some really tough times where I do feel like, you know, there was a wedge that continued to just kind of grow between us a little bit,

Kellie: 47:33

. and those were just the early years!.

Chris Howard: 47:37

Yeah, that's funny. Kind of staying on theme of the wedges, what other instances would you guys consider wedges?

Erin: 47:48

Wow, you start.

Chris Howard: 47:50

Outside of, of course you know your sperm donor.

Kellie: 47:57

Oh, a big question mark just went up in the listeners ears about that one.

Chris Howard: 48:05

Oh, that's the doozy right there.

Kellie: 48:07

Yeah, that is a doozy, that's coming. The biological father. Okay, I would say that there were several business ventures because I'm entrepreneurial by the very nature of who I am and given my early plans for my life and my career, that went in a totally different direction quite unexpectedly a whole other conversation that we'll have at some point in time. Coming back to Western Colorado and stepping into some very, very big shoes that our mom filled in this local community, I really just went head down into becoming a very young career woman I mean just working for a US congressman and owning and operating businesses and launching companies and getting into the network marketing and direct sales industry, like we had just talked about and that took several turns over the course of many years and we worked with several different companies and I think each one of those opportunities both the companies that I started, a franchise that Erin actually introduced me to we had a guest on a previous episode who was a co-franchisee Erin worked with and for us in that company but also introduced us to the very company itself. So I'm sure that there were some feelings there about well, I introduced you to it. Now you open one, you're owning it, you're running it and I'm working for you and other direct sales companies that we got involved with where there was team building going on, companies that I got involved with that Erin decided not to get involved with, and then some resentments for having said no and not yes.

Kellie: 50:03

So I think it was ongoing and I think that they centered mostly around businesses and opportunities that led to lack of communication, miscommunication, misunderstanding. That all became the little thorns and little resentments over time that we continue to again sweep under the rug because at our heart level we wanted to be sisters always, forever, unequivocally, no matter what. Yeah, and I think we'd have those conversations right and kind of come back to you know, we'd have some of these hard conversations and we get ourselves right again, you know, and kind of on the same page, and then something else would come up and some other life circumstance or business venture or whatever, and it would just slowly unravel again.

Chris Howard: 51:05

What's been the biggest challenge for you guys in this project?

Kellie: 51:10

In this project? Not having enough Kleenex nearby when the conversations get really deep and really emotional! I would say.

Kellie: 51:23

Chris, I have a really hard time putting words to any specific challenges associated with this project, other than the stories and the layers are so complex. You're talking about two very different quote unquote nuclear families and some years in between. So many different characters, so many different directions, pathways, people that I would say probably the biggest challenge from my perspective is thinking that I have articulated and communicated the complexity clearly and yet there's still so much more to unpack because the information that I provided didn't answer the question or didn't really paint the full picture enough. I'm not sure if that makes sense. It has not been challenging to go all in. In fact, shortly after a year ago, Erin spoke with you and then the three of us spoke together.

Kellie: 52:36

Erin was in Colorado dropping her son Hadley off first freshman year of college and came to spend a few days.

Kellie: 52:44

And it was during those few days where we sat across from each other, Erin, at my desk in my office with all of our boxes and pictures and journals, and you know we finally pulled all that stuff out and I remember looking at you with tear-filled eyes and said if we're going to do this, we're going all in no holes barred, we are not holding anything back, because if either one of us holds anything back, then we're not going to honor Chris and his vision and we're not going to do ourselves any favors and we're not going to acknowledge the ultimate gift that we were given, which was each other from mom.

Kellie: 53:28

And I really felt from the very beginning that, because of the timing and the ages and the number of years it had been, and there are so many synchronicities at play that I felt very, very compelled, like this was our opportunity to pull out all those thorns and open up all those wounds and rub off all those scabs, that that was a real gift that was sitting in front of us. So it has not been challenging to talk about the really, really hard stuff. It maybe has been challenging sometimes to remember all of it because there's so much of it. But I would say that, Chris, I would say, if I can articulate a challenge, it is just wanting to give you everything you're asking for and then sometimes feeling like I haven't done that as well as I could have, or. But we have endless conversation, so it all always comes out in the end.

Chris Howard: 54:25

Yeah, we, we always get there eventually and I think in the beginning of it is as open as you guys are. There were times where it did feel like you guys were holding back and probably because you know again, you know again me coming in thinking that the fences have been mended right, where there's actually a couple, you know a couple, of gates still open and not necessarily connected that maybe you guys didn't kind of want to say certain things to negate all the progress that you guys had made up until that point. You know what I mean, and that's the thing about television and film is, and that's why I always say, like we don't want this to be the hallmark movie of the month. We want this thing to be as raw and as real as possible, because we need people to identify themselves in these characters. Right, they need to be able to see themselves in these characters. Yeah, there's flaws, but we also have to strip it down to who these characters are in their truest essence.

Chris Howard: 55:29

And again, I was a stranger coming in like how vulnerable could you be to you know some black dude you just met through Erin boyfriend, right? But I think, as we went further and further into the story I mean, each week it was like I was like oh shit, I didn't know it was this. Like I didn't know it was this, I didn't know it was, oh my God, like are you kidding me? Each week was like a different reveal. It was like a television show was this tune in next week and you'll find out, like every week. I was getting left on a cliffhanger and I'm like damn, I got to wait till next Friday to find out.

Chris Howard: 56:10

Did JR die Like you know what?

Chris Howard: 56:11

I mean, like that's like it was.

Chris Howard: 56:12

I feel like I was getting left on a cliffhanger.

Chris Howard: 56:13

So each week we talked, it was so much more revealing, right, and I think the more comfortable you guys got, the more you felt that you could open and be your true selves to me, cause at the end of the day again, that's what we have to be able to, uh, to get out there.

Chris Howard: 56:31

And I think, for for me personally, I think it's just been um biggest challenge for me has just been the layers, right, that we always talk about and the complexity of trying to weave everybody's characters into into one, into one timeline. I think that's been the the biggest challenge because, like I said before, it's easy if I was doing a story on Abraham Lincoln, right, like I just got one person to focus on and just tell his story, um, but we've got three you know three people and then also other supporting characters, right, like we have Scott stories, but I know pop stories, katie story, you know, so you've got like a bunch of other people that play intricate parts in this piece. So that's been the biggest challenge to me. And then also my shitty memory, thank God for for.

Chris Howard: 57:22

AI and AI transcript so I can always go back to see what was said. But you know, I'm happy with where we are. We still have a ways to go. Right now, we're currently putting together the Bible and for people that don't know what the Bible is, the Bible is basically. It's the heart of what this project is. It's the who, what, when, where and why. It's the log line, it's the synops is. It's the who, what, when, where and why. It's the log line, it's the synopsis, it's the settings, it's the characters, it's character arcs when does Kellie story start and where does she end in the story? And same thing for Erin. We want to see these characters start from one place and then end entirely somewhere else. And so right now that's the process that we're in right now is putting together the Bible, and we're being very meticulous with that information because, again, there's a lot. Marsha had a very. You know she may not have been here long, but she lived a life. She lived a life worth living and you, as her daughters, continue that.

Erin: 58:49

So you know there's a lot of information there, but you know, I think we're doing a good job of putting it all together. I love that. It's interesting because I think for me echoing Kellie there's been really nothing within our conversations and actually working on this project that I would identify as challenging. I look forward to every single conversation, and I would even venture to say that I look forward to every conversation more today than I did a year ago because of how far we've come and how much we've grown, and so the only thing that I would identify as challenging for me is I feel like I don't have enough hours in my day working a full-time job and you know, really working on this project on the side. And then you know the decision that we made to launch the podcast, and now I had no idea how much work that was going to be. And so for me, so much of the challenges quote unquote if you will really lie in me almost feeling like I'm not doing all that I can and doing all that I should be doing to make sure that we are being good stewards of your time and energy and really moving things forward on the podcast side as part of the project and part of what we're doing, and so that would be what I would tag as kind of has been.

Erin: 1:00:31

The most challenging is just, I'm like, oh man, I just wish I could do this full time and I wish I could scan in all my photos and go through all the journals and, you know, give you everything that you need exactly in the moment that you need it, give you everything that you need exactly in the moment that you need it, and that Kellie and I could just do all the production and all the promotion and grow the podcast by leaps and bounds, exponentially, every single day. That would be absolutely my dream. But that's been the most challenging thing for me is balancing this project with the other demands of life. Good answer, now, who's a good student?

Chris Howard: 1:01:13

I think you guys are doing great, because I think right now it's really just making sure the characters are right, and I think the thing that's probably left is really nailing down your mom, because even during our last conversation, some of the things that I wrote, I think, painted her in a different picture than she. I think sometimes we get so caught up in like saying like this person is so strong, this person is so strong, but yet we don't recognize the fear, and I think that's one of the things that we have to get right is, while it's accomplished, as she was and as fierce as she was, there was some fear there, there was some insecurity there, there was anger, there was a lot of different emotions.

Chris Howard: 1:02:06

That's one of the things that we have to get right as well is how we describe her as this real person and not a Mother Teresa saint right, who is, you know, this perfect individual, but again showing someone who is all those things right Happy, you know, adventurous, all those things and at the same time, vulnerable and scared and insecure and driven by different things. I think that's the thing that we have to get right also.

Erin: 1:02:30

Yeah, I agree with that completely, because I want and we've said this from the beginning that we want this story to be realistic, we want it to be told as a true reflection of her life and our lives. And it's easy, especially when you're talking about our mom right, who's no longer here and we miss her. And it's easy to look into the past with rose colored glasses, if you will and to focus on all good and all the positive and all the things you really want to remember, on all good and all the positive and all the things you really want to remember.

Erin: 1:03:08

Yeah, and it is important to recognize that she was still human, we're all still human, and so it's okay to at least for me personally right to look back on some of these things and admit like, oh, here's where I messed up, here's where I fell off the rails, here's you know all of those things. But then, recognizing those things in her as well and the difficulties and the challenges and the places that she quote unquote fell short, you know, whatever that means.

Erin: 1:03:38

But just to be open to acknowledging the imperfections of every single person and character, I think is really important. So thank you for always reminding us of that.

Chris Howard: 1:03:50

Yeah, and I think it's you know. Again, I think she was. She was someone to other people and you want people to come away from saying like, yep, that's Marsha right, because she was someone to everyone that was in their orbit. Whoever she was to Erin may be different to who she was to someone at work. You know, and so you. We want to be able to make sure that we're telling that story.

The Sisters: 1:04:16

Absolutely Well, and I think that too, you know you have interviewed a lot of people right, Family members and non non family members, some of her friends and co workers and all of that. And so, you know, one of my favorite conversations that we had was with her dear friend, Dick Maynard, who was like "Marsha came to me with this and I was like, absolutely not, we're still competing for airtime, you know, and just kind of, you know, revealing that side of her that was playful but also driven and laser focused on. You know that she was going after what she wanted and really headstrong, and so it was fun for me to hear about some of those things, even early on in her career, that I didn't know about, and that was a great conversation. How about you, Kellie?

Kellie: 1:05:09

I think that what all of this has brought to light for me is I'll steal the title of Brene Brown's book, The Gifts of Imperfection, and that through our imperfections and acknowledging them, owning them, remembering them, embracing them, has not only allowed me to become a better human being to myself, to Marcus, to Reis, Lily, Savannah, to our granddaughter Reign, to you, Erin, to Hadley and Weston, but it has also allowed me to see my mom as just the real human being that she was, that she struggled with her imperfections to the day she died. She struggled with imperfections that were her own, that she created through the living of her life. She struggled with the imperfections of the scars that she was left with from multiple surgeries and radiation and chemotherapy, the imperfections that came from growing up in a broken home in the 1940s and 50s and then basically having no and, if any, a pretty terrible relationship with her mother and her brother her whole entire life, to the point where in the final hours of her life, she was whispering what have I done so wrong in my life? That this is my penance and that has always made me very, very, very sad for her and what it has done through these conversations and through some really intense contemplation and reflection over the last 30 years, since her passing 31 years this year, is I want to embrace all of those imperfections in myself while I am still alive so that I can face my own end of life with

Kellie: 1:07:21

more happiness and grace and acceptance, because it is going to happen to all of us and I think a huge part of hers was I'm 47.

Kellie: 1:07:35

I'm married to the love of my life, my children are still young. I desperately want to be a grandma someday. I have the career of my dreams, and she had to say goodbye to all of it. She was very young, so this entire process has taught me more about how I want to choose to live every single day, and I'm grateful for that. That's really beautiful. Thank you for sharing all that and I'm grateful for that. That's really beautiful.

Chris Howard: 1:08:05

Thank you for sharing all that. Yeah, I didn't know that. Again, they see, here's another one of those nuggets that just falls out from talking that your mother I mean we, I know we talked about her again being angry about that, that this is how she's going to end her life or this is how it's going to end, and then you kind of taking that in and kind of flipping that For me it's just, you know, I think about, as I mentioned before, like my own mortality, and you know, I think we can all try to prepare for it and we all understand that one day it's going to happen, but we never know how we're going to deal with it. Especially if you feel like it's shortened right, if you feel like you haven't done all the things that you thought you were going to be able to do, I'm sure a lot of us will feel a whole lot different about how we choose to meet our end.

Kellie: 1:08:55

Yeah, absolutely so, Chris, do you have any other hot seat questions for the sisters today?

Chris Howard: 1:09:03

I don't think I have any hot seat, any more hot seat questions for the sisters today? I don't think I have any more hot seat questions. I'm sure, as we continue to talk, there probably will be. But I think for me and again we always talk about this is just making sure I get it right, Making sure the characters are the characters, because the characters are going to tell the story. The actors are going to have to be the ones to breathe life into the characters. I want this to be such a character-rich project that it is attractive to the who's who of Hollywood, that everybody wants to play these characters. And I think by showing the complexity, the messiness of life, that's where really good actors really get to get into these characters and really bring out the best of themselves and help them face their own issues as well.

Kellie: 1:09:51

Well, I'm going to put you in the hot seat.

Chris Howard: 1:09:53

All right.

Kellie: 1:09:55

What has been your favorite part of working with us over the last year and how has this impacted your own life?

Chris Howard: 1:10:07

My favorite part. That is a hot seat question. I think my favorite part is I think I've mentioned this before, but I don't know too many people that have gone through what you guys have gone through and still maintain your level of love and compassion for life and for what you give to others and the love and compassion that you give to each other. A lot of those instances break people and those people become jaded cynical. Definitely not half glass full people right. And so I just look at all that you guys continue to give as I face my own challenges in my own life, the things that I'm going through personally. That gives me hope and gives me strength to be strong for the people that I need to be strong for. So that's yeah.

Kellie: 1:11:03

Well, that is a gift, Thank you, yes, it is.

Chris Howard: 1:11:07

No, thank you guys. Again, how we face challenges, I think says a lot about who we are as people.

Erin: 1:11:13

Well and like we talk about all the time, especially on this podcast, is changing the way we think about and talk about legacy and what that means, and that legacy isn't just what we leave behind, but that it's how we live.

Erin: 1:11:29

That is your legacy, how you live your life right now is your legacy, and the gift that we have been given through this process of working on this project and knowing you and the gift of our sisterhood has changed a lot of other aspects of my life and the way that I live it and really realizing what's really important in this life. You know where to focus your time and attention and energy. You know I feel like I've let go of some things that needed to be let go of, right, and there are things now that come up in my life literally over the I mean the last months, the last year for sure where things that would have sidelined me before that I can let just roll off my back a little bit easier because they don't serve me, and a classic line from Kellie is I'm just not available for that for things that that just don't make my life better, so I'm quicker to forgive, and there's just been a lot, of, a lot of incredible life lessons and a lot of beauty that's come out of working on this project.

Kellie: 1:12:48

Well, and a big side shout out to Marcus, because he taught me I'm available for that and I'm not available for that, and the gift of being able to establish and set boundaries. But I concur with you, erin there are things that we do need to lose. There are losses that are really hard, but there are also some things that we need to lose as human beings and let go of and be okay with that, and working on this project has absolutely helped me with that too, and I love building a living legacy with the two of you.

Erin: 1:13:27

Amen

Erin: 1:13:27

, siste,

Chris Howard: 1:13:27

Amen

The Sisters: 1:13:44

.

The Sisters: 1:13:51

Hearing the stories of others helps us create a more meaningful connection to our own. We hope today's conversation offered you insight, encouragement or even just a moment to pause and reflect on the story you're living and the legacy you're creating. A moment to pause and reflect on the story you're living and the legacy you're creating. If something in this episode moved you, please consider sharing it with someone you love. A small share can make a big impact. You can also join us on Instagram, facebook or LinkedIn and connect further at thepigpodcastcom. And if you're enjoying this podcast, one of the most meaningful ways you can support us is by leaving a five-star rating, writing a short review or simply letting us know your thoughts. Your feedback helps us reach others and reminds us why we do this work, because The P-I-G isn't just a podcast. It's a place to remember that, even in the midst of grief, life goes on. Resilience matters and love never leaves. Thanks for being on this journey with us. Until next time. Hogs and kisses everyone.